Update #2: My first Colonial show buckle.... I discovered an unknown cellar hole! Pewter rat tail spoon?

DownEast_Detecting

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Updates are at the bottom of this original post. 👇👇👇

While scanning the lidar of previous permissions one day I happened to see this tiny depression(red circle) I knew it was a long shot but I hoped it could be an old house site. I made the trek yesterday.
ED7F219D-2F0D-4F73-9B84-EF91AEDF3AB2.jpeg


This old road which can be seen on the topo is long gone. There were a total of 4 houses on it. (Blue, purple,orange and yellow circles) you can see them clearly on the old topo and their cellar holes on lidar. These are all from 1800's The (Red circle) is the hopefully older house site
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So i make my way out there, and sure enough it is an old cellar hole. There are iron and other deep signals everywhere. The site is so thick with trees there is hardly any room to swing and in most places there isn't. So my first signal was a choppy lead one, I had to dig through many small stones that were either part of a very wide foundation or some sort of “patio” entrance. #1 is the smallest spoon I have ever dug. What is it made out of? It’s very fragile, some pieces flaked off when I tried to clean it. I think I pretty much found all the pieces. Was it a sugar, baby, or what spoon? How old?
A74F1E77-DBB0-46BB-B8E5-97DC5F1BD69C.jpeg


Then some iron nails #2, I think they are hand forged rose heads. I thought #3 was going to be an old copper coin but turned out to be a piece of a hinge. I think it looks old and hand made. Doesn’t that edge look crude? And I think you can see saw or file marks as well. And is #4 a teapot handle or what?
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How old do you think this site is? 1700's or 1800's? Thanks for looking

_____________________________
Update #1

So i went back and just cleaned up some old dead trees, to get a little more room to swing. And looked what i pulled out. #5 is another rat tail pewter spoon except this one is a normal one compared to the tiny spoon. #6 is a flat button and #7 is a needle maybe? I swear i see a persons face with writing on the button. But i probably just got a gas of the Pareidolia's lol
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______________________________
update #2

went back out today and did the backyard area. I dug my first colonial show buckle frame #8, hurray! and then in the same hole is #9. is that part of the tongue on the pin still? Im starting to think with those pewter rat tail spoons, hand wrought nails and this shoe buckle frame that im definitely into a 1700's site.
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The stone wall is one of the oldest i have seen. Its barley still there and only is small areas. And a decent size oak coming up through it. It probably wasn't around when the stone wall was built. But i dont think these people were around in the 1800's to maintain it.
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Upvote 23

robertk

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I don't know about the age, but that's a cool find. Good eye to spot that on the LIDAR.
 

E-Trac-Ohio

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Cool finds !
In your area it could very well be 1700's.
Years ago I found a 1724 and 1736 KG Half Pennies on a cellar hole just outside New Harbor, ME.
I also found a few Spoons that look just like yours on the same cellar hole.
 

Centsless Detecting

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Research pays off for sure. Rebel beat me to it. Pewter rat tail spoon. I hope there is some goodies waiting for you there.
 

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DownEast_Detecting

DownEast_Detecting

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I don't know about the age, but that's a cool find. Good eye to spot that on the LIDAR.
thanks robert, i have been getting less picky with the size and shape of the depression in the ground. I figure the really old ones are half filled in by now. So dont show up on lidar as much, like this one.
Cool finds !
In your area it could very well be 1700's.
Years ago I found a 1724 and 1736 KG Half Pennies on a cellar hole just outside New Harbor, ME.
I also found a few Spoons that look just like yours on the same cellar hole.
Thank E-Trac. Yeah thats why i was asking. It definitely has the potential to be colonial.
oh yeah, that cellar hole right outside of Newharb where you found some KG 2nd's, where was that again? 😁
actually there is a good chance its on marked on my map. You should tell me where it is, so i can move it to the very back of the list LOL. i assume you were thorough?
thanks rebel, that makes it a great find for me. And should help with dating the site. although i got a little confused reading that link. A few well respected members were saying 1600's then a couple chimed in and said no way, its from the 1700's. Im searching Tnet for other old colonial spoon threads. but any good sites for dating spoons? That dont pop up on the first page from googling. Sometimes the best resources are buried deep in the web. lol but true
Research pays off for sure. Rebel beat me to it. Pewter rat tail spoon. I hope there is some goodies waiting for you there.
Thank you Centsless, Well that makes it the oldest silverware i have dug to date. I would have to think there are more goodies. Especially if it turns out to be a virgin site. I gotta clear it out of trees and debris though before anything can happen. But looks like it has some serious potential
Hopefully you find some coins around the site to help with the date, good luck!
Yeah scruggs that would be nice. With dating the site yes, but also i have yet to find a coin from the 1700's 🤞
 

Digger RJ

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While scanning the lidar of previous permissions one day I happened to see this tiny depression(red circle) I knew it was a long shot but I hoped it could be an old house site. I made the trek yesterday.
View attachment 2101573

This old road which can be seen on the topo is long gone. There were a total of 4 houses on it. (Blue, purple,orange and yellow circles) you can see them clearly on the old topo and their cellar holes on lidar.(green is a beaver dam, Red is the hopeful house site)
View attachment 2101577 View attachment 2101578 View attachment 2101579

I have been down this old road before. and hunted the orange and yellow house sites. It’s now a snowmobile trail. The first 2 houses(blue &orange) are part of one guys property lot. He doesn’t mind people walking down the snowmobile path, but doesn’t really want people digging in his field. The next one(orange) is another's property and fair game but looks like it’s been hunted hard. Lots of metal and pottery up on the foundation and stone wall. Wish i could of found the tiny bottle unbroken, it has portland,ME on it.
View attachment 2101584

Then you walk past the beaver dam. (Green) Kinda cool to be standing 5 ft below the water level.
View attachment 2101585

The last cellar hole on the road (yellow) looks the oldest but I didn’t have any luck there in the past. So I made my way out into the thick woods in search of what I was hoping was a house site. (red circle) It was so hard to photograph, but it was definitely an old cellar hole! The only photo i could get to show any kind of depression is the one where im standing in it. There are iron and other deep signals everywhere. I dug an old iron hinge of some sort. But the site is so thick with trees there is hardly any room to swing. This guy doesn’t even know this one is on his property. But I’m going to ask if I can clear all the trees and debris from the area. So my first signal was a choppy lead one, I had to dig through many small stones that were either part of a very wide foundation or some sort of “patio” entrance. #1 is the smallest spoon I have ever dug. What is it made out of? It’s very fragile, some pieces flaked off when I tried to clean it. I think I pretty much found all the pieces. Was it a sugar, baby, or what spoon? How old?
View attachment 2101583 View attachment 2101576

Then some iron nails #2, I think they are hand forged rose heads. I thought #3 was going to be an old copper coin but turned out to be a piece of a hinge. I think it looks old and hand made. Doesn’t that edge look crude? And I think you can see saw or file marks as well. And is #4 a teapot handle or what?
View attachment 2101575 View attachment 2101574

How old do you think this site is? 1700's or 1800's? Thanks for looking
Very Cool!!! Congrats!!!
 

mjb Mike

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very cool i use those maps and have found some really good spots with it.most well used colonial roads look like a ditch through the woods.
 

cudamark

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#4 kettle spout?
 

cajundetector

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Mar 4, 2023
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While scanning the lidar of previous permissions one day I happened to see this tiny depression(red circle) I knew it was a long shot but I hoped it could be an old house site. I made the trek yesterday.
View attachment 2101573

This old road which can be seen on the topo is long gone. There were a total of 4 houses on it. (Blue, purple,orange and yellow circles) you can see them clearly on the old topo and their cellar holes on lidar.(green is a beaver dam, Red is the hopeful house site)
View attachment 2101577 View attachment 2101578 View attachment 2101579

I have been down this old road before. and hunted the orange and yellow house sites. It’s now a snowmobile trail. The first 2 houses(blue &orange) are part of one guys property lot. He doesn’t mind people walking down the snowmobile path, but doesn’t really want people digging in his field. The next one(orange) is another's property and fair game but looks like it’s been hunted hard. Lots of metal and pottery up on the foundation and stone wall. Wish i could of found the tiny bottle unbroken, it has portland,ME on it.
View attachment 2101584

Then you walk past the beaver dam. (Green) Kinda cool to be standing 5 ft below the water level.
View attachment 2101585

The last cellar hole on the road (yellow) looks the oldest but I didn’t have any luck there in the past. So I made my way out into the thick woods in search of what I was hoping was a house site. (red circle) It was so hard to photograph, but it was definitely an old cellar hole! The only photo i could get to show any kind of depression is the one where im standing in it. There are iron and other deep signals everywhere. I dug an old iron hinge of some sort. But the site is so thick with trees there is hardly any room to swing. This guy doesn’t even know this one is on his property. But I’m going to ask if I can clear all the trees and debris from the area. So my first signal was a choppy lead one, I had to dig through many small stones that were either part of a very wide foundation or some sort of “patio” entrance. #1 is the smallest spoon I have ever dug. What is it made out of? It’s very fragile, some pieces flaked off when I tried to clean it. I think I pretty much found all the pieces. Was it a sugar, baby, or what spoon? How old?
View attachment 2101583 View attachment 2101576

Then some iron nails #2, I think they are hand forged rose heads. I thought #3 was going to be an old copper coin but turned out to be a piece of a hinge. I think it looks old and hand made. Doesn’t that edge look crude? And I think you can see saw or file marks as well. And is #4 a teapot handle or what?
View attachment 2101575 View attachment 2101574

How old do you think this site is? 1700's or 1800's? Thanks for looking
Regarding the spoon, consider doing a lead swab test. Regardless, nice find!
 

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DownEast_Detecting

DownEast_Detecting

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Great post as always!
Thanks for stopping in BennyV
very cool i use those maps and have found some really good spots with it.most well used colonial roads look like a ditch through the woods.
Yes, some are barley there at all. You have to zoom in and it is faint but its there.
Other things im on the look out for are: Stone walls- sometimes you can figure out the property lines and get a layout of everything. where the house should be, privy hole, out buildings, the well. And I'm looking for Farm land if its out in the middle of the woods now, there must be a house or barn cellar hole near by. You can see the plow marks still visible in the earth. Down below the Green is old farmland. see the plow marks?, and White are stone walls. And you can see the cellar holes. This is in the middle of the woods.
Screenshot (124).jpg

#4 kettle spout?
yes it very well could be. I was thinking handle but the shape seems more spout-ish now that you mention it.
Regarding the spoon, consider doing a lead swab test. Regardless, nice find!
Thanks cajun, what date range with that give me? and how do i do the test? is it something i can do online? I think i read somewhere they stopped making pewter with so much lead at some point. People were getting sick and complaining. SO after a certain point they stopped making this kind of pewter. Is this why i should get it tested?
 

smr1000

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I am so new to this amazing hobby, so I hope you don't mind me reaching out. I love poring over old maps of my area of NE Ohio and trying to figure out where to hunt. Just getting my feet wet by looking at this site and You Tube videos. Trying learn all that I can. Your post about Lidar just adds another dimension to the preparation, which can be half of the fun. Would you explain how to access this data. Is there a best site to use? There are a bunch of options. Thanks to all for any advice, I'm grateful for any help.
 

cajundetector

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Mar 4, 2023
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Thanks for stopping in BennyV

Yes, some are barley there at all. You have to zoom in and it is faint but its there.
Other things im on the look out for are: Stone walls- sometimes you can figure out the property lines and get a layout of everything. where the house should be, privy hole, out buildings, the well. And I'm looking for Farm land if its out in the middle of the woods now, there must be a house or barn cellar hole near by. You can see the plow marks still visible in the earth. Down below the Green is old farmland. see the plow marks?, and White are stone walls. And you can see the cellar holes. This is in the middle of the woods.
View attachment 2102094

yes it very well could be. I was thinking handle but the shape seems more spout-ish now that you mention it.

Thanks cajun, what date range with that give me? and how do i do the test? is it something i can do online? I think i read somewhere they stopped making pewter with so much lead at some point. People were getting sick and complaining. SO after a certain point they stopped making this kind of pewter. Is this why i should get it tested?
Hi
Thanks for stopping in BennyV

Yes, some are barley there at all. You have to zoom in and it is faint but its there.
Other things im on the look out for are: Stone walls- sometimes you can figure out the property lines and get a layout of everything. where the house should be, privy hole, out buildings, the well. And I'm looking for Farm land if its out in the middle of the woods now, there must be a house or barn cellar hole near by. You can see the plow marks still visible in the earth. Down below the Green is old farmland. see the plow marks?, and White are stone walls. And you can see the cellar holes. This is in the middle of the woods.
View attachment 2102094

yes it very well could be. I was thinking handle but the shape seems more spout-ish now that you mention it.

Thanks cajun, what date range with that give me? and how do i do the test? is it something i can do online? I think i read somewhere they stopped making pewter with so much lead at some point. People were getting sick and complaining. SO after a certain point they stopped making this kind of pewter. Is this why i should get it tested?
Hi DE!, from my basic understanding of pewter spoons/ silverware “the poor man’s silver” lead content was reduced by turn of century or a little after, although there may be more knowledgeable members that may “weigh in” on the topic. Lead test swabs may be bought at local hardware stores such as ACE. in most cases, depending on the type of swab, it is rubbed along the metal. If lead is present a certain color will appear (the swabs I’ve used it will turn red). Also, you can bend a pewter spoon very easily and it will hold the shape of the bend. Hope this helps!
 

cajundetector

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Mar 4, 2023
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Hi

Hi DE!, from my basic understanding of pewter spoons/ silverware “the poor man’s silver” lead content was reduced by turn of century or a little after, although there may be more knowledgeable members that may “weigh in” on the topic. Lead test swabs may be bought at local hardware stores such as ACE. in most cases, depending on the type of swab, it is rubbed along the metal. If lead is present a certain color will appear (the swabs I’ve used it will turn red). Also, you can bend a pewter spoon very easily and it will hold the shape of the bend. Hope this helps!
Hi

Hi DE!, from my basic understanding of pewter spoons/ silverware “the poor man’s silver” lead content was reduced by turn of century or a little after, although there may be more knowledgeable members that may “weigh in” on the topic. Lead test swabs may be bought at local hardware stores such as ACE. in most cases, depending on the type of swab, it is rubbed along the metal. If lead is present a certain color will appear (the swabs I’ve used it will turn red). Also, you can bend a pewter spoon very easily and it will hold the shape of the bend. Hope this helps!
Also
Hi

Hi DE!, from my basic understanding of pewter spoons/ silverware “the poor man’s silver” lead content was reduced by turn of century or a little after, although there may be more knowledgeable members that may “weigh in” on the topic. Lead test swabs may be bought at local hardware stores such as ACE. in most cases, depending on the type of swab, it is rubbed along the metal. If lead is present a certain color will appear (the swabs I’ve used it will turn red). Also, you can bend a pewter spoon very easily and it will hold the shape of the bend. Hope this helps!
I don’t think that it’s necessary that you test. The spoon by design is very old pewter and has lead content. These test, as far as I’ve encountered will indicate presence of lead but not amount unless there’s something more sophisticated that I don’t know about.
 

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DownEast_Detecting

DownEast_Detecting

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I am so new to this amazing hobby, so I hope you don't mind me reaching out. I love poring over old maps of my area of NE Ohio and trying to figure out where to hunt. Just getting my feet wet by looking at this site and You Tube videos. Trying learn all that I can. Your post about Lidar just adds another dimension to the preparation, which can be half of the fun. Would you explain how to access this data. Is there a best site to use? There are a bunch of options. Thanks to all for any advice, I'm grateful for any help.
I hope you stick with it. you should read through this 👉 Abandoned village hunt! with, research, mapping and lidar tips regarding lidar
Hi

Hi DE!, from my basic understanding of pewter spoons/ silverware “the poor man’s silver” lead content was reduced by turn of century or a little after, although there may be more knowledgeable members that may “weigh in” on the topic. Lead test swabs may be bought at local hardware stores such as ACE. in most cases, depending on the type of swab, it is rubbed along the metal. If lead is present a certain color will appear (the swabs I’ve used it will turn red). Also, you can bend a pewter spoon very easily and it will hold the shape of the bend. Hope this helps
yeah i dont think a test will help unless its a full breakdown of all metals and %'s. Im thinking these spoons are late 17th century to mid 18th century. Im going to some research tonight and try and narrow a date down.
 

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DownEast_Detecting

DownEast_Detecting

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Well I went into a deep dive on how to date early pewter spoons and found some really great info. I especially liked the following quote.
“Because of the rapid evolution of spoon styles in the seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries spoons are ideal for dating archaeological sites. Due to the close correlation of stem and bowl changes, the complete spoon is not necessary to identify the type or approximate date of manufacture”
Bowl shapes and design
“With the introduction of the puritan, the bowl changed into an egg shape, with the shoulders being broader than the tip. The bowls of trifid ends remain basically egg-shaped, but the tip is slightly broader than the puritans. A major evolution in bowl styles occurred with the wavy end spoons around 1690. The bowl is drawn out, becoming long and very narrow. This long, narrow style was retained with the development of the round end spoon but was gradually replaced by a wider bowl about 1730”
14D9582D-FFAA-42A4-B15A-C98394B19768.jpeg
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Rat tail design and length
“Puritan and early round end spoons also exhibit a very short V-shaped rat-tail. Longer, plain rat-tails First appeared with the Introduction of the trifid end in 1663. By 1670 the rat-tail was accentuated by hollows on either side. In the late seventeenth century trifid ends and early wavy ends exhibit elaborate cast designs, called lace backs, around the rat-tail. After about 1700 the rat-tails were very long and were sometimes combined with a drop. After 1730 the rat-tail was gradually replaced by various types of drops”
6528098A-2F6B-4226-8712-9EEAB8EDEE04.jpeg
49F0E7CC-1A07-4620-992D-E100E633A3ED.jpeg

So judging by the above and below info my small spoon #1 is probably a salt or sugar Hanoverlan style spoon 1690-1730.
“Hanoverlans were characterized by stems which were rounded at the top and had a ridge running down the center with pronounced hollows on either side. When laid flat, the end of the stem was slightly turned upwards. The rat-tails on early Hanoverians were long and simple although after about 1730 the rat-tails were replaced by various types of drops”
Pretty much exactly like this one. That over at old dominion forge they cast in the original molds.
169819D9-01C0-4011-BCD8-6064EF189A27.jpeg


My bigger # 5 spoon I’m not as sure about as to the shape of the bowl. It looks like a Trifold like C in figure 2. The rat tail looks like the D in figure 5 but isn’t as long as that. So I’m unsure about this one my guess is 1660-1730.
Anybody got anything to add or a correction?
 

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