Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[RG1976]

Hi Tina-

Your compliments are amazing - thank you so much!!

As far as tumlinsons making money off their maps - I really don't believe they did - with the 100% intention to scam.

I wholeheartedly believe that they were on a mission to find something - and created the maps for Dr. Davis to finance them.

Treasure hunters, for the most part, are quite reclusive. I found it odd that they invited Robert's landlord to join them in their expeditions. That would be a multistate road trip – that most people would not do – unless they had a piece of the pie.

 

[sgtfda]

Tina I collect information on treasure sites. In this case caches. I hear things now and then and keep a eye out for more info. You get enough to justify a look see I do that next. What is in the book. Maps, photos and accounts that match some privileged information. The Davis collection is full of information. You just need to make the connections.
I'm surprised no one noticed the Travis Manuscript. Or perhaps those that have are in shock.

 

[somehiker]

Thanks for posting this SH! Is there anyone - anywhere else - outside of DeGrazia - that will show that style hat?

As I'm sure you're aware - some folks will tell us that DeGrazia had a hand in the maps creation.

Were the medicine men depicted also known to wear Christian crosses or practice Christianity?

Regardless - that painting is a beautiful piece of art

You can use various search terms to find other artwork...some dating back to the 1880's.
And old photos and references to pointed hats/headdresses as well as Aztec Warriors depicted on Codices as wearing a brimless pointed hat more akin to that often shown on 20th century "witch" art. Scratch the "Moqui" from my previous post.....I checked my own file, and while they did fashion a pointed hat for some ceremonies, it had a brim made of feathers and wasn't as tall as the one on the stone map priest. One is shown in the drawing accompanying this .... http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/report-on-the-moqui-pueblos-of-arizona.htm

No, I have never heard of a Navajo or Moqui medicine man using a Christian Cross in any traditional ceremony. Perhaps in some form of "mixed or blended" ritual ?
Haven't heard of, or seen anything depicting a "witch" using one either, especially wearing a cloak with one on the shoulder.....so "witch" don't work for me.
In fact, the only "priestly" cloaks I have been able to find with crosses, traditional as well as the "Cross of Malta" etc. on the sleeve (and often over the heart as well), were the Templars.

 

[releventchair]

What do you see?

Quality of stone and it's condition affects work-ability but results should be personal enough to recognize a hand/writing as individual.
However the horse stone ,by deliberate effort, or by the makers unintended technique shows two and three piece letters as if chiseled. Non uniform depth with a light groove here and there like a bar on an R lower right leg. The horse outlines in contrast to it's letters are smooth, flowing and uniform.
The witch stone shows cleaner attachment of multiple piece letters and smoother more consistent depth. More a carved effect than crudely chiseled.
The contrast's are similar to a graving tool vs a crude right angle chisel.
Travis's folder cover would be interesting in stone by his hand. The L's for example with their separate pieces at end turns.
Some outlines could be,(I'm not saying any are) machined on both stones where clean smooth lines contrast with other parts. (Same material yet showing different results.)
A variety of maps with different makers and or tools is acceptable in a multi mine or other operation enterprise, but why use stone as a medium to record such busy information before transferring them to a master if all relate?
To tie multiple sites by combining a mix of maps and makers outside of very skilled/schooled map makers risks loss of accuracy of scale for starters. Like the "Chinese secret game" but on paper,or stone.
So why the varied work with possible multi party markings to create a single destination on multiple pieces that should all be combined before making a permanent record, unless a relay/ poker run type scavenger hunt?

Another great vid though . Generating plenty of sober thought.

 

[deducer]

Good job, Frank and Ryan!

 

[somehiker]

Tina I collect information on treasure sites. In this case caches. I hear things now and then and keep a eye out for more info. You get enough to justify a look see I do that next. What is in the book. Maps, photos and accounts that match some privileged information. The Davis collection is full of information. You just need to make the connections.
I'm surprised no one noticed the Travis Manuscript. Or perhaps those that have are in shock.View attachment 1176602

It will certainly be a shock to those who have been assured by various "insiders", that Travis' manuscript is in the hands of the Tumlinson family.....in TEXAS.
The manuscript has been mentioned many times in most of the discussions about the stones. Why are the contents being kept from serious researchers, especially those that are out there taking risks and sometimes paying the ultimate price for their efforts
This is NOT good stewardship IMHO.

 

[Garry]

Ryan,

Great Job! Lots to chew on.

For some reason it never occurred to me that the booklet cover for the manuscript might be used to compare the block lettering. Duh! I did think that Travis had a beautiful signature for a guy with a fourth grade education. Pretty artistic.

I have a dozen questions and twice that many research ideas. Just curious, are you and Frank in lock step here or does he have his own version of the story?

Garry

 

[cactusjumper]

From a large collection of research, a small contribution....

Both Navajo and Moqui medicine men wore "tall pointed sombreros"
The Moqui version also had a red band.
This is a DeGrazia painting, one of several paintings and charcoal sketches he did of Navajo Medicine Men.
It is called "Navajo Night Chant"

View attachment 1176576

The question is.....Where did "they get the idea" for a pointed sombrero/holy man connection ?

I do not believe it was from a "witch".

Wayne,

A number of De Grazia paintings have pointed, flat brimmed hats in them. In addition to that, I have his book, "De Grazia Paints The Apache Indians". It is inscribed: "To The La France's.....Luck". Some of the better researchers should try to find a "La France" in Arizona history........It's tough.

My thoughts on De Grazia being involved in the creation of the Stone Maps was original, although it's more than possible that someone thought of it prior to my voicing that opinion. The other Dutch Hunter I believe could have been involve is Chuck Aylor. IMHO, those thoughts are not without some merit.

Very nice job on Ryan and Frank's video. Hope there is more to follow.

Take care,

Joe

 

[RG1976]

It will certainly be a shock to those who have been assured by various "insiders", that Travis' manuscript is in the hands of the Tumlinson family.....in TEXAS.
The manuscript has been mentioned many times in most of the discussions about the stones. Why are the contents being kept from serious researchers, especially those that are out there taking risks and sometimes paying the ultimate price for their efforts
This is NOT good stewardship IMHO.

SH - can you clarify what this means?

Im jumping to a conclusion that doesn't seem amiable from your direction

 

[DiggerGal]

Tina I collect information on treasure sites. In this case caches. I hear things now and then and keep a eye out for more info. You get enough to justify a look see I do that next. What is in the book. Maps, photos and accounts that match some privileged information. The Davis collection is full of information. You just need to make the connections.
I'm surprised no one noticed the Travis Manuscript. Or perhaps those that have are in shock.View attachment 1176602

Frank,

I need to hang out with You to develop my research skills. I did notice the manuscript as it is shown in the beginning and Ryan makes reference to it at the end showing the script comparison. I bet it is a fabulous read of history!
I am very respectful in regards to information like what you have been given to read and gain reference from. I have found out by simply acknowledging something exists with people I respect (you and Ryan) that your briefing is enough for me in this case.

Thanks again Frank! Your knowledge and boots on the ground is very compelling!

 

[RG1976]

Ryan,

Great Job! Lots to chew on.

For some reason it never occurred to me that the booklet cover for the manuscript might be used to compare the block lettering. Duh! I did think that Travis had a beautiful signature for a guy with a fourth grade education. Pretty artistic.

I have a dozen questions and twice that many research ideas. Just curious, are you and Frank in lock step here or does he have his own version of the story?

Garry

Hey Garry - thanks so much! You are, in my opinion, the ultimate of the stone maps historians.

Frank and I had a little pow-wow before I put the video out - and his thoughts are equal to mine on video 6.

 

[DiggerGal]

It will certainly be a shock to those who have been assured by various "insiders", that Travis' manuscript is in the hands of the Tumlinson family.....in TEXAS.
The manuscript has been mentioned many times in most of the discussions about the stones. Why are the contents being kept from serious researchers, especially those that are out there taking risks and sometimes paying the ultimate price for their efforts
This is NOT good stewardship IMHO.

This is a Great Question, and now I want to know...is the manuscript in Texas? And are the contents being withheld? I assumed that the manuscript was used in the video, but perhaps I am mistaken.
Ryan and Frank- can you elaborate on the manuscript and what you know of its existence and where it is known to be?

Thanks!

 

[sgtfda]

Gary
My opinion is the tombstone engraver made the front of the trail maps using the Peg Leg map Travis gave him to use as a guide. Travis the rest. I put a lot of faith in Garmans writings. He clearly states the Tesora map was Peraltas mine location map. I admit I'm influenced by my mentors and their evidence. I never betray a confidence and it's not my place to reveal certain information. If someone is kind enough to show me something privileged I try to return that favor if I can down the road. I would not have lasted long as a detective if I gave up informants or betrayed a trust.

 

[somehiker]

Ryan:

Although it may not affect my own work as much as it would those who have invested years of their time in pursuit of those answers relating to how the stones came into being, and whether or not Travis made them/bought them/found them himself or received them from someone else, what is contained in that manuscript as a "first person" account should be considered as best evidence....either for or against the assertions that the stones are part of a hoax.
Although I have been invited to visit Greg's library, my focus so far when down there, has been on studying and working with the physical evidence I do have, rather than the historical pros and cons. I do however, plan to visit Greg at some time in the next year or so, and will likely have a look through the manuscript then.
My comment about stewardship is not meant to be critical of Greg, since Greg has always been very generous with his knowledge and collection, or of you or Frank...my buddy and sometimes co-conspirator , but rather to those individuals who knew of it's present location, yet failed to pass the information along. I won't name names, but some manner of deception re: the status of the manuscript, has been at play these last couple of years or so. Amiability aside, it's just something I see as wrong.

Regards:SH.

BTW.....great job. Even on the parts I disagree with !!

 

[RG1976]

Ryan:

Although it may not affect my own work as much as it would those who have invested years of their time in pursuit of those answers relating to how the stones came into being, and whether or not Travis made them/bought them/found them himself or received them from someone else, what is contained in that manuscript as a "first person" account should be considered as best evidence....either for or against the assertions that the stones are part of a hoax.
Although I have been invited to visit Greg's library, my focus so far when down there, has been on studying and working with the physical evidence I do have, rather than the historical pros and cons. I do however, plan to visit Greg at some time in the next year or so, and will likely have a look through the manuscript then.
My comment about stewardship is not meant to be critical of Greg, since Greg has always been very generous with his knowledge and collection, or of you or Frank...my buddy but rather to those individuals who knew of it's present location, yet failed to pass the information along. I won't name names, but some manner of deception re: the status of the manuscript, has been at play these last couple of years or so. Amiability aside, it's just something I see as wrong.

Regards:SH.

BTW.....great job. Even on the parts I disagree with !!

Ah well thanks SH! You know I appreciate you.

As far as Greg - I'm sure he'd be just as shocked as anyone else to see the manuscript. Greg wasn't involved - you may need to recant your assumptions there.

 

[azdave35]

Ryan:

Although it may not affect my own work as much as it would those who have invested years of their time in pursuit of those answers relating to how the stones came into being, and whether or not Travis made them/bought them/found them himself or received them from someone else, what is contained in that manuscript as a "first person" account should be considered as best evidence....either for or against the assertions that the stones are part of a hoax.
Although I have been invited to visit Greg's library, my focus so far when down there, has been on studying and working with the physical evidence I do have, rather than the historical pros and cons. I do however, plan to visit Greg at some time in the next year or so, and will likely have a look through the manuscript then.
My comment about stewardship is not meant to be critical of Greg, since Greg has always been very generous with his knowledge and collection, or of you or Frank...my buddy but rather to those individuals who knew of it's present location, yet failed to pass the information along. I won't name names, but some manner of deception re: the status of the manuscript, has been at play these last couple of years or so. Amiability aside, it's just something I see as wrong.

Regards:SH.

BTW.....great job. Even on the parts I disagree with !!

what makes you think he got the manuscript from greg?....

 

[sgtfda]

Perhaps there are other hidden clues in the video

 

[somehiker]

Ah well thanks SH! You know I appreciate you.

As far as Greg - I'm sure he'd be just as shocked as anyone else to see the manuscript. Greg wasn't involved - you may need to recant your assumptions there.

Ok, wrong assumption on my part, but based partly on some of the references used being common to those saved by Greg, your video of the collection, AND Frank's "Look what we found" parting shot.....at Greg's library. Ryan's description of what he went thru in obtaining the manuscript also kinda fit the same scenario.
If Ryan was able to talk the Tumlinsons into handing it over.....well. That IS something worth both a celebration and a solid handshake.
As well as an apology to any I may have unjustly maligned.

Regards:SH.

 

[RG1976]

Ok, wrong assumption on my part, but based partly on some of the references used being common to those saved by Greg, your video of the collection, AND Frank's "Look what we found" parting shot.....at Greg's library. Ryan's description of what he went thru in obtaining the manuscript also kinda fit the same scenario.
If Ryan was able to talk the Tumlinsons into handing it over.....well. That IS something worth both a celebration and a solid handshake.
As well as an apology to any I may have unjustly maligned.

Regards:SH.

Makes sense why you'd come to that assumption.

Sh: what'd you think of the writing style on the cover compared to the horse / witch / priest map

 

[somehiker]

Perhaps there are other hidden clues in the video

Now Frank......stop that !
Or I'll be up all night watching it....