Went to a talk...

[pepperj]

On Monday I attended a event that was hosted by a neighbouring heritage society. The topic was the early history of the Rideau Lakes. It was informative in many ways and the speaker had done a pretty good job considering it's probably not a regular thing for him to be doing.

The speaker had been a teacher also is an archaeologist, carver and other things not important to mention. The experience of his academia showed as he started the presentation at the beginning of the ice age and it filled the first 20+ minutes (yawn) I really think most that attended did this in school at one time as it was all familiar in nature.

The area that the talk entered on was covered with 2.5 km of ice that melted 4000 yrs ago due to climate change (but there was the plug for the current climate change rant)

He went through the 4 main time periods and explained each with some detail showing slides of examples of tools, spear points/knives then arrowheads from the later period.

His archaeologist experience was dully noted as the slides presented numerous sites, how they did it, the structuring of the dig. This was interesting on the why's of the test pits and reasoning behind the exploration.

Slides were shown of examples of finds dug during the different digs.
Note: These digs were not a hobby but were required full exploration requirement before development stage of a building/construction. The other was expanding the fields of a farm and taking down some tree'd areas, so they did a dig.

The request at the end of the presentation was of anyone finding anything related to native culture to send a picture to him so he could record it.
( he went on another rant of the lack of acknowledgement by the township in recognizing that there was any native habitation)

He did throw a few under the bus (hypothetically speaking)

The local museums taking down their native cultural displays and putting them in storage.
Once an item is found/recorded it's put into storage and never seen again type thing.
So I read into this that he was really into displaying-telling hte story then hiding it.

After the talk I waited my turn to have a chat, then there was just the 2 of us while he packed things up-he opened up some.
The 3 finds shown were on the table, noted there were crafts that his wife had made (she's native) also some flakes, points, blade that I didn't photograph.

The large one was really great, I asked him where it was dug/found?
Oh I bought it at a sale in X city. The seller said it was James Bay and it's illegal to be selling these items.

Question in my mind: But it's OK to buy them-right?

The other 2 were shown in the slide presentation as recovered items-yet there they sat on the table in his personal collection.

Question in my mind: So it's OK to pilfer them for his personal pleasure.

He did state that he had many items in his collection and this was just a few things that he brought.

Question in my mind: So this must be a regular event to take for personal and give the "storage" the stuff of no value.

In conversation about displays being dismantled (public) the contributing parties got their items back, meaning then the archaeologists got the items back.
(He stated he didn't know what they did with them, probably just kept them)

Question in my mind: So basically the trowel and paint brush crews get a free ticket/permission to hunt/dig and pilfer for their own collections.

It's always good to act a little dumb when talking to the academia as they do provide an insight on things that we suspect what happens.
This was a just a small slice on what really happens, and the laws of what a person can do in their private life as a collector.

 

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[dirstscratcher]

Depends on where he dug, what state, private or public etc. In most states, the land owner (AFAIK) owns the artifacts and can do with as he pleases, with a few exceptions. If the dig is done by an institution, it's still the land owners prerogative. If the presenter is a member of a professional archaeological group, then they usually have ethics rules governing such things. I have been on a few excavations as a volunteer, and the land owners have been very generous giving stuff to friends and family.

 

[newnan man]

I knew an archeologist in Columbus, Ohio. He had the most impressive collection of artifacts I've ever seen. That includes collections in museums. I know he bought some because he tried to buy my Dovetails. Still, I'm sure he had plenty from years of digs. He was already retired when I met him.

 

[pepperj]

Depends on where he dug, what state, private or public etc. In most states, the land owner (AFAIK) owns the artifacts and can do with as he pleases, with a few exceptions. If the dig is done by an institution, it's still the land owners prerogative. If the presenter is a member of a professional archaeological group, then they usually have ethics rules governing such things. I have been on a few excavations as a volunteer, and the land owners have been very generous giving stuff to friends and family.

Most of the digs were required before any development.
That or just what they do for research.
He emphasized the fact that the colonial history was 2% since the ice age.
Yet a 20+ minute portion was the 2 digs they did in downtown Kingston. (2.5+yrs) of digging up 2 parking lots.
So this was to be done pre-construction.
Noted finds/recoveries some pottery and a point.
(The point was to prove there was native inhabitants pre the building of Kingston.)
It also uncovered a point of the fort that the Indians starved the French to death pre Fort Henry.
I went up to the fenceline of these 2 digs, and treated like a Leopard that was dripping flesh upon their digging.

That's the way they treat the public up here, the big secret, never tell what they recover.
(Exception would be if it was a private hired affair, then the nice comes out)
So one nice day I queried if they had found anything of importance (Military)
Closed mouth, cards held to the chest-"nothing" was the reply.

Funny I heard different through a few others.

So I mentioned I detected for a hobby.
Watch the body language then.🤣

 

[releventchair]

An online archeology course was supposed to be fair across the board.
Apparently not all received that message as it quickly degenerated into treasure hunting/pot hunters vs archies became pretty heated.
Legal grave robbing/bones fondling vs leave the dead alone as thier caring folk left them...

it is nice to have context with relics.
We know better what we are doing is not the way to get that across though.
People do not have to cooperate with archies beyond thier limited jurisdiction.
How does that help relics?
Combined with curating often meaning setting in the dark..... A archie without thier hat in their hand approaching my property is going to get shown the property line.

 

[dirstscratcher]

I knew an archeologist in Columbus, Ohio. He had the most impressive collection of artifacts I've ever seen. That includes collections in museums. I know he bought some because he tried to buy my Dovetails. Still, I'm sure he had plenty from years of digs. He was already retired when I met him.

You don't need to name names, but I probably know of him. Back in the day, as I understand it, Pre 1960's when the Ohio Historical Society sponsored digs, the artifacts were given to those who participated.

 

[Jatrox]

I found a campsite and was asked to report it to the state archies. Against my better judgement I did, out of respect for the landowner. Against my better judgement because of this type of thing. I know people like this who did exactly this, archies that use the title to take what they want. I know they "record" and "research" but to what end? They don't go ask any tribes for info, they create stories and spread it as truth. Maybe it's because I have first nation blood and see it differently but, there is a disconnect they have and think they know better. I love history, true history. But it has three sides to it: the Euro side, the archie side, and the first nation side.
Finding artifacts, knowing the history of the place you are in, knowing what you found and being able to pass that on with the artifact is one thing. Collecting for pride or profit is disgusting.

 

[pepperj]

I found a campsite and was asked to report it to the state archies. Against my better judgement I did, out of respect for the landowner. Against my better judgement because of this type of thing. I know people like this who did exactly this, archies that use the title to take what they want. I know they "record" and "research" but to what end? They don't go ask any tribes for info, they create stories and spread it as truth. Maybe it's because I have first nation blood and see it differently but, there is a disconnect they have and think they know better. I love history, true history. But it has three sides to it: the Euro side, the archie side, and the first nation side.
Finding artifacts, knowing the history of the place you are in, knowing what you found and being able to pass that on with the artifact is one thing. Collecting for pride or profit is disgusting.

I read your response a few times to gather what you were saying.
The person at this event that spoke really had all 3 sides to him.
No first Nation blood (1st thing he stated-though his wife was)
Archie side-used it for what it was worth

It seemed that he has really no problem throwing different things under the bus.
Maybe it was what ever suited his likes the best.

Though his message was that we (modern colonial era) only represented 2% of the time line of the footprint made.

Collecting for pride?
I have met a lot of folks that had collections of many different things, and many were very proud of the collections that they amassed.
With that there always seemed the knowledge that went along with it as they readily passed on their knowledge when talking about an item, or were open to find out information regarding it.

 

[sprailroad]

Well...I am "Proud" of my "Collections" that I've found detecting over many years, such as hundreds of keys, a good number of marbles and some of the "Better" coins etc. I have never sold anything, I did cash in 26,000 pennies last month, (another story), so...if you have no collection that you might have some pride in and have nothing to sell....what's the point of detecting? I dig a lot of trash, which I neither collect or sell, instead I dispose of it all in my home trash. I enjoy the thrill of discovery when something special is found, two days ago I found my first and only small Infantry button, "The eagle with the letter I inside the shield with some gilt still on it, proud of it actually. With no collecting that involves Pride or profit, I suppose there would be no museums or "Archies" for that matter. I'm wit pepperj on this one. I understand your view of the Euro side, the Archie side and the "First Nation side" , but I have my side as well.

 

[newnan man]

You don't need to name names, but I probably know of him. Back in the day, as I understand it, Pre 1960's when the Ohio Historical Society sponsored digs, the artifacts were given to those who participated.

The last time I visited the Ohio Historical Museum in Columbus I noticed a plaque on the wall with his name on it recognizing his contributions to the museum.

 

[Jatrox]

Yeah I guess pride is the wrong word. Speaking about the ones with the pompous arrogance. They are few but seem to run into one every once in a while.

 

[pepperj]

Yeah I guess pride is the wrong word. Speaking about the ones with the pompous arrogance. They are few but seem to run into one every once in a while.

That's a good way of describing it.
Have ran into a few myself, even the guy that did the talk had a streak of it flowing out.
Though it might be that certain folks might come off as pompous arrogance, and then they might be their just tired of answering all the questions or providing proof.
Then there's the full out top arse 🕳 that thinks they're top dog.

 

[dirstscratcher]

The last time I visited the Ohio Historical Museum in Columbus I noticed a plaque on the wall with his name on it recognizing his contributions to the museum.

He wasn't named after an infant per chance?

 

[RGINN]

A little off topic but, sprailroad, how in the world did you come up with 26,000 pennies? Did you run them through coinstar? That does sound like an interesting story.

 

[Jatrox]

That's a good way of describing it.
Have ran into a few myself, even the guy that did the talk had a streak of it flowing out.
Though it might be that certain folks might come off as pompous arrogance, and then they might be their just tired of answering all the questions or providing proof.
Then there's the full out top arse 🕳 that thinks they're top dog.

Yeah the way I read your original post, you and I are on the same page, I just get my fingers in front of my brain sometimes. And I have to be honest, kind of struck a nerve. To me, the history in what I find (or what anyone finds) is the value if the history is there. I don't care about dollar signs or the bad side of pride in owning, I want to salvage history for the true value. I just took your original post as that guy that gave the talk was that way. And the same questions you posed would have gone through my head, and maybe a few more. Maybe I read into it too much. I just can't stand poachers, on any level. And just because his wife is first nation doesn't mean he understands anything about it. Anyway...

 

[newnan man]

He wasn't named after an infant per chance?

No, so there's at least 2 of them!

 

[sprailroad]

A little off topic but, sprailroad, how in the world did you come up with 26,000 pennies? Did you run them through coinstar? That does sound like an interesting story.

Well sir...I retired from work Nov. 2014, So...starting in Jan. 2015 I started to save all the coins I found detecting, put them all in a coffee can, when it was full I separated them, Penney, nickel, dime etc. and ran them through a rock tumbler, then I kept them separated into 4 cans, they became full, then into plastic tubs, 10"x14", after 9 years I seemed to have 26,500 actually, pennies that is. One tub was full and was working on another. Finally took the pennies to a bank and they ran them for me, took the cash and bought stamps for a collection. Now, after a day of detecting, I have 4 coffee cans I use, you know, pennies, nickels, dimes quarters and one can for the "Dead" pennies, "eaten up zinc and bent etc. pennies" So, beginning in Jan. 2015 I kept count. Now I still have all the nickels, dime and quarters, and as of today that would be 3,845+, 6884+ and 4,727+quarters. The + being the ones that have been tumbled. Now, the important question, WHY?. I don't know,...just because? I tell my wife they are her inheritance, makes me more valuable to her alive, I think, and anyone who sees them can't but help but to run their fingers thru them. Ya well, a mind is a terrible thing to waste, or "simple pleasures for a simple mine?" I've heard them both, soooo. Of course this is ALOT of Park hunting. Not my first choice, but age sets a few limits. Sometimes, a fella wonders why he even asked, or more likley other members are wondering why you asked, look what happened, I answered. Good detecting for ya RGINN. P.S. BACK to pepperj's post. Something we all have run into, at least something similar.

 

[Dejure]

(1) One friend worked at the recently built, local native museum along the Columbia River, here in Eastern Washington. He mentioned there are boxes of artifacts stored in the basement.

(2) Another friend contacted the above mentioned museum regarding several artifacts he had. They took them all and not a thing has been heard about them, anywhere public or private, the five or so years since. Their haul include what we called salmon packers and other large items. Interestingly, I haven't seen anything like them the few times I've been to the museum.

(3) In the sixties, Chief Longjim's daughter told us where to dig for artifacts. As she pointed out, when she did, the government had already desecrated the area. Supposedly, it moved all the graves back around 1920, give or take a decade or two. All they had to do was, move about sixteen bones to qualify a relocation as a relocation.

It was a long and rewarding dig.

A "Dr." Gringo, from the University of Washington Archeology Department, wrote a story published in the Wentachee Daily World about us, though he didn't know who we were. He called us grave robbers.

Gringo's students bagged everything up [now, 60 plus years ago] and it was all tucked away in a university basement and hasn't been seen since.

In the sixties, our family, in a partnership with friends, had a Rock-Curio-Antique shop. University students dropped by , though the shop was a few hundred miles from the university, and would sell artifacts on the cheap. I remember figurines that screamed Aztec, or something like it, to this layman mind. Too, I remember some nice, large obsidian points. Clearly, these were not things from the states.

The Chief's daughter, also, told us where the Chief's canoe was. She was using it as a flower planter. We rescued it and donated it to the local museum, which had a substantial portion dedicated to the local indian population (Chief Joe, etc.).

(4) Certain local indians are VERY fanatical about anything found on what is considered tribal lands belonging to them. Their fanaticisms go so far as prosecutions.

Regarding finds, I wonder about finds of things white men built, like old, octagon shaped barrel rifles, and how they fit into those schemes. Said another way, respect in matters relative is one sided.

SIDE NOTE: Yes, I have first hand knowledge of a few situations described in the foregoing paragraph.

 

[pepperj]

Well sir...I retired from work Nov. 2014, So...starting in Jan. 2015 I started to save all the coins I found detecting, put them all in a coffee can, when it was full I separated them, Penney, nickel, dime etc. and ran them through a rock tumbler, then I kept them separated into 4 cans, they became full, then into plastic tubs, 10"x14", after 9 years I seemed to have 26,500 actually, pennies that is. One tub was full and was working on another. Finally took the pennies to a bank and they ran them for me, took the cash and bought stamps for a collection. Now, after a day of detecting, I have 4 coffee cans I use, you know, pennies, nickels, dimes quarters and one can for the "Dead" pennies, "eaten up zinc and bent etc. pennies" So, beginning in Jan. 2015 I kept count. Now I still have all the nickels, dime and quarters, and as of today that would be 3,845+, 6884+ and 4,727+quarters. The + being the ones that have been tumbled. Now, the important question, WHY?. I don't know,...just because? I tell my wife they are her inheritance, makes me more valuable to her alive, I think, and anyone who sees them can't but help but to run their fingers thru them. Ya well, a mind is a terrible thing to waste, or "simple pleasures for a simple mine?" I've heard them both, soooo. Of course this is ALOT of Park hunting. Not my first choice, but age sets a few limits. Sometimes, a fella wonders why he even asked, or more likley other members are wondering why you asked, look what happened, I answered. Good detecting for ya RGINN. P.S. BACK to pepperj's post. Something we all have run into, at least something similar.

Thanks for sharing this, it's really appreciated you taking the time.

 

[sprailroad]

It was your post to begin with pepperj, and a valid one. a note on my last comment, the + on those numbers were for the coins not YET tumbled.