What REALLY happened to the wealth of Knights Templar

The poster that mentioned Govt agencies is quite correct regarding the history of these 3 letter groups hunting down, torturing, killing and otherwise hell bent on acquiring wealth. A brief read about the Japanese fortunes after WW2 in the philipines and singapore is only one example, there are dozens including the leaders of an infamous Indonesian nation, marcos treasure, Vatican wealth, any gold that enters the graveyard known as UBS Bank, etc. The 3 letter groups routinely murder and torture to find whatever asset can be found, and once found to keep that asset from leaving its greedy hands.

Where is part of the Templar treasure today...It is held by the worlds Royal Families, interbred the last few hundred years and shareholders of the Bank of England. It is foundation for the Citi of london, which is a privately held corporation that trades the worlds currencies and precious metals. It is within the walls of the Vatican, the foundation for US Federal Reserve, central european Bank(s), and various other financial interests. Money and assets are liquid, they seek the highest return for the owner and spreads like an Octopus into various incarnations.

The truth is always staring us in the face, if we dare to believe it.
 

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Dear U238;
First, welcome to TN, my friend. Next, the theory that the Templar treasure was abscounded by the British Monarchy doesn't stand up to the light of scrutiny. For at least 50 years after the disbanding of the Templars, the governments of Western Europe did not show a significant rise in either liquid wealth or expendures. In fact, for several decades after the disolusion of the Templars, many European governments went right to the brink of bankrupcy, and it was quite common for most Regents of that time frame to be virtually insolvent. It can be surmised that this was a direct result of the dismantling of the Templar banking system, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Thank you for the warm welcomes, I've been reading this wonderful site and excellent posts for some time. I live in China / Asia, left the USA about 7 years ago. The world is one great adventure


As far as Templar treasure, i should support my post.


After witnessing the wholesale slaughter of the Templars, it would not have been prudent to show it off, It did bring about the fall of the most powerfull group in Europe. It would be the same as spending wildly after robbing a bank, like waving a giant red flag. The people that controlled the treasure would certainly have laid low, waiting and biding their time. We tend to think in terms of right now, In Asia family businesses are managed in terms of decades, even generational. Europe was closer to this frame of mind in the middle ages as well, Royal Families interbred their offspring to form alliances that would not pay off for decades. It would have been wise to simply service the treasure, educate your offspring, and install them into important and influential positions and patiently wait for the right moment and opportunity.



The Bank of England was founded by a Scotsman, loaning money to the government of England ( sound familiar?) . This same Scotsman was then installed as the official banker of England. This occurred in 1694. His Name was William Patterson, a Member of livery companies, which Originated in the mid 1300's in England and the foundation for the corporation known as the Citi of London. ( which has nothing to do with the city of London). This is just a small outline of the origins of the Bank of England. The city of London today controls and influences currency trading, shipping, insurance and myriad industries worldwide. Money and assets are like energy, it never ceases but simply changes form.



As far as the rest of the examples i referred too; Nazi gold, Vatican riches, Japanese gold and Soewarno fortunes are facts. These funds and assets exist, although usually not brought to bear on public markets.

Soewarno does not refer to the individual himself, but the group that has control of the funds amassed by Indonesia. These funds go back hundreds of years, when there was so much treasure that prawiro laid entire floors in gold coin. The origin of these assets are from the dutch east indies trading routes, when merchants controlled huge regions of Asia, and more importantly actual trade routes. They sold their spices and goods for Gold and Silver from Europe, some of these sunken ships lie in waters on same trade routes plied by ships hundreds of years ago.


Japan went thru Asia like gangbusters, looting treasures as they went. Manchuria alone provided Japan with huge natural resources to fund and also provide raw materials for conquests Prior to attacking Pearl Harbor. Japan invaded Burma and Indonesia, these are not hospitable regions, Japan invaded and looted the regions of its resources, and assets. There must be profit in War strategy, otherwise the invading Nation will find itself in untenable position and forced to withdraw. I am not talking about Japanese gold supposed to be buried in Philippines somewhere, that is not supportable. But there is Japanese treasure, it is located with European Banks and Asian repositories, and some sitting at the bottom of South China Sea.


The US Federal Reserve was mainly supported by the Warburg banking family which also were financial advisers to US presidents ( Paul warburg), and lessor extent Rothschild's banking family. The Warburg family appears in germany out of nowhere in Mid 1500's and enters banking, eventually controlling various nations central banking systems, just as Federal Reserve controls USA banking system. Simon Von Cassel was the first known reference to warburg family, he established himself and changed family name to Honor the town of warburg germany. Simon received a Charter to operate as a Banking institution within Germany by the prince bishop of baderborn, who also sponsored Simon's forays into Banking.

Templar Treasure was used in many ways over many years. Its not co incidence that the template used by Templar's for banking was copied throughout Europe and later became standard for international banking, it works and pays massive dividends to the funding party. I just don't believe the The treasure was lost, it was utilized and funded some of the largest institutions in the world in a carefully orchestrated manner. There are bits and pieces left all over the world that can be found though.

Treasure hunting is serious business requiring large amounts of research and objective critical analysis. If a person likes History, archeology, exploration and can sustain their passion, it is a grand calling.
 

Dear U238;
My friend, it is now time to inject some facts into the discussion. First, there was no *wholesale slaughter* of Templars. The total number of Templars who were executed is less than 14, all of them in France. I wouldn't call this a slaughter by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, the Templars were not the most powerful group in Europe, not by a long shot my friend. They were tempered by their Rule which placed a spiritual check on their secular activities. Also, do you REALLY imagine the Vatican would disband their most powerful branch??? It would seem to me that if the Templars were as powerful as many assume they were, then they would have had absolutely NO trouble invading France en masse and holding the French nobility hostage at sword point until their captive members were released from prison, my friend.

Also, the time 1694 was almost 400 years AFTER the Templars were disbanded by Rome, my friend. By the year 1694, the Rennasance had already gripped Western Europe for some 200 odd years and the Templar myths and legends had long faded into very distant memories. Also by 1694 the British Isles were in the midst of an colonial economic boom of sorts, therefore the wealth of the British Empire was being cultivated from in a large part from their overseas possessions, my friend.

In light of the facts, it is practically impossible to assume a position that any supposed surplus Templar wealth helped to fuel the the banking societies of Western Europe, least of All Great Britain.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Hello Lamar. some reading for you , My Friend.


http://stephenkinsella.net/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bankingcentrally.pdf


http://books.google.com/books?id=GE...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA157,M1



http://www.amazon.com/Trial-Templars-Malcolm-Barber/dp/0521457270



Banking families benifited directly from destruction of the Templars, and it was templar holdings that gave rise to what we have as modern international banking. Italian and Scottish families created the Bank of England, and it took several hundred years as they were dealing with plagues, wars, and other small matters that occured during this time period, we must place history into context. We are used to immediate results, this was not the world in the middle ages in Europe. It took hundreds of years for events to play out.

The Templar order was effectively disbanded by King Philip, not the Vatican ( Papal order) , so i am not sure what your point is. Much of the wealth was kept by Vatican regardless.

The wealth of British empire, and wealth of bank of England are two seperate issues. The same holds true for the USA and its Central Bank, the Federal Reserve, or any other banking Group and the land they hold Charter in.

The Templars were a very powerful order in Europe, King Philip viewed them as a threat large enough they required destruction. Their Banking Template is the same one you are using on the internet, tapestries and paintings throughout the middle ages testify to their influence and fascination historians and artists alike had with the Order, and still do today.

thank you for the conversation, my Friend.
 

Hi U238
welcome to T Net,

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they all contain a grain of truth added to a lot of conjecture paraded by the author as an equal truth,

whilst we don't have a forum like T Net on my side of the pond people here do research these things,

people keep talking of the vast amount of Templar treasure, and acting as a bank for merchants yes this is true, but how many merchants were there in those days 99 percent of the population were serfs and did not and could not leave there masters land without his permission leaving just a few who could travel
by today's standards no more than a few hundred moved from country to country doing deals each year, travel was dangerous and robbers were every where

that's why the templers accepted money at one end and then giving the merchant his money less their cut at the other, but whilst it added up over the years was by modern standards small beer, and not done on a vast scale,

the latest theory is that after the Templar's were starting to be arrested some escaped from the their headquarters with between 7 and 10 waggon loads of treasure, gold is heavy so the amount in each wagon would by volume be quite small, this is believed to have been taken to Portugal and buried there at in or near the last Templar castle they controlled,

as far as the bank of England that you mention all wars were until the bank was formed paid for by promises,
that's how the nobles acquired most of England after the norman conquest, they were promised land in exchange for troops and a certain amount of borrowed gold to pay them, and afterwards receive the gold back with interest,

but like most monarchs down the ages they quite often could ot pay the gold back and reneged on their promise, this happened so often and they had to look elsewhere for the money including taxation on property, in later years the goldsmiths ( mostly Jews ) normally lent the king the money and some of the men at arms from the lords, and many from free men recruited to fight, and paid with the gold he had borrowed,

after the civil war Parliament was formed and many of the decisions regarding the day to day running of the country was taken from the king although he still had a much larger input than royalty has now ( that is after the monarchy was restored ) , royalty over the years gradually becoming no more than a figurehead,

but the king and Parliament as in many earlier periods had difficulty paying back the money it had borrowed, this came to a head in the late 1600's when the king and Parliament could not raise the necessary money to pay either the navy or recruit men at arms for another war,

William patterson did not start out rich nor build a bank up with Italian bankers in an earlier period as you suggest, it was the Jewish goldsmiths that provided most of the gold as payment for the kings protection as they were persecuted in most other European countries,

when he left England he was a poor man and went to ( i think ) somewhere in Africa, making his fortune there, after returning to Britain he acquired rich friends and also realised that the govt and king could not continue to raise money the way they had done for hundreds of years,

consequently he came up with the idea of a central agency that could offer promissory notes to investors and guarantee they would be repaid,

he did not own the bank nor was he the major share holder, nor was it private anyone could put money in and receive interest on the money they invested (unlike the FED ) it is not owned except in the sense that it is owned by the govt who borrow money from it, all a bank note is is a promissory note from the govt to pay the bearer a certain amount in gold upon request this was when the gold standard was still in use,

when the bank was set up patterson was made chairman, his signature appearing on all 5 pound notes, at that time the smallest note in circulation, and all notes since then until quite recently have the signature of the present Governor
when it was formed its remit was to print bank notes (promises) and stocks (another promise), whilst the royal mint continued making coinage

the fact that up until Parliament was formed after the civil war the king had to borrow heavily and as mentioned quite often did not pay back his debts,
but as king he was above the law so there was sod all that those who he borrowed money off could do about it,
but this also shows that royalty almost certainly did not get their hands on the Templar treasures,

But royalty are like dandelions, it doesn't matter how many heads you cut off the buggers still keep coming up !!!!!

furness
 

Dear U238;
I've taken the opportunity to review the paper which you've so thoughtfully provided a link to, and for this I thank you, however there are several points that I would take issue with. First, there exists no historical documentation which states that 54 Templars were burned at the stake in France. The historically recorded number is 14 Templars, all Knights, all found to be guilty as charged. Please note that Mr. Kinsella does not provide a footnote reference to his statement that 54 Knights Templars were burned alive, because to the best of my knowledge no such document exists.

Next, the statement by Mr. Kinsella that:
A series of
papal bulls allowed the knights to keep the spoils of their conquests, creating a reserve of capital
While this statement is factual, it is also VERY misleading. The Vatican permitted ALL of the Crusading knights to retain ALL of the spoils of conquest, not just the Templars, as Mr. Kinsella's statement implies. It therefore stands to reason that many other Catholic military Orders had also amassed wealth as a result of the Crusades, most notably the Hospitallers and the Teutonic faction.

Next, Mr. Kinsella convienently omits the fact that what the Templars were doing was in fact a sin. A Christian cannot loan another Christian money and expect to recieve more than the actual loan amount and if offered more than the actual loan amount, they are to refuse it. This was, and still is, a sin, as far as I am aware. Therefore, Mr. Kinsella's statement that:
The destruction of the Templars allowed the rise of the Italian banking families,
many of whom went on to sponsor the Renaissance

The Italian banking families which Mr. Kinsella is referring to were the traditional Jewish money lenders, and they had been living and working in Italy for several centuries. In fact, these money lending families were in place for a couple of centuries before the Crusades had begun, therefore Mr. Kinsella's preceeding statement is very misleading in context. In fact, King Phillip the Fair had expelled ALL of the traditional Jewish money lenders from France BEFORE he persecuted the Templars and of course, these Jewish money lenders went to Italy to live with their relatives.

Also, the Renaissance was not *sponsored* by anyone. The Renaissance was not driven by a financial motive, rather it came about due a very sudden population increase throughout Western Europe. The population had expanded to the point where Europe was no longer able to feed itself and as a result, the entire European population was slowly starving itself to death. The Renaissance was not anything of a physical nature, rather it was shift in the way Europeans thought. Over a period of about two centuries, Europeans slowly changed their veiws of art, science, politics, engineering and technology.

Many amateur scholars incorrectly assume that the Age of Discovery was brought about the Renaissance, whereas the opposite viewpoint is the correct one. The Renaissance was first brought on by the Age of Discovery. The birth place of the Renaissance can agruably placed in Florence, Italy during the mid 1400s. It started with a group of Roman Catholic scholars, the largest portion being Jesuits, who started questioning the traditional views towards science, most notably the field of astronomy and mathmatics.

To conclude, while Mr. Kinsella's paper is entertaining to read, he offers precious little insight as to the workings of the Templar banking system. The Templars did not invent the modern banking, as this system had already been firmly in place for two centuries before the inception of the Templar Order, rather the Templars took an existing system, and with their far-flung physical holdings, were able to consolidate already established banking procedures into a rather effective international banking organization.

The traditional Jewish money lending society, who had previously only worked on local levels, soon saw the advantage of a far reaching banking system which the Templars had initiated,and with the sudden demise of the Templar Order, they quickly stepped in to fill the gap left by the Templar disbandment.In other words, international banking EVOLVED, due to Europe's NEED for such an entity. Had the Templars maintained a strong military presence, through funding and training, they may have had the strength and power to denounce Philip as a heretic and could have called for a Crusade against France, however the Templar Order had degenerated from being a military Order into a secular financial organization, without the needed manpower to effectively field a sizable army in order to protect it's assests.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

"TEMPLAR KNIGHTS....SICARII, does this words synonyms?"

Do you mean in that they were all brave fighters.
Please explain. Thanks Roadquest


Wikipedia is sustained by people like you. Please donate today.Sicarii
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Sicarius.
Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-' or later contract- killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group[1] to the Jewish Zealots, (or insurgents) who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Modernity and Comparisons
3 Citations
4 References
5 See also



[edit] History
"When Albinus reached the city of Jerusalem,[2] he bent every effort and made every provision to ensure peace in the land by exterminating most of the Sicarii."

—Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (xx.208)
The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sicae, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection. Literally, Sicarii meant "dagger-men".[3]

The victims of the Sicarii included Jonathan the High Priest, though it is possible that his murder was orchestrated by the Roman governor Felix. Some of their murders were met with severe retaliation by the Romans on the entire Jewish population of the country. On some occasions, they could be bribed to spare their intended victims. If the narrative of Barabbas is not an invention to create a parable, even convicted Sicarii were occasionally released on promising to spare their opponents, though there is no evidence for this practice outside the Gospels, which are largely in accord on this point. Once, Josephus relates, after kidnapping the secretary of Eleazar, governor of the Temple precincts, they agreed to release him in exchange for ten of their captured comrades.

At the beginning of the Jewish Revolt (66 CE), the Sicarii, and (possibly) Zealot helpers (Josephus differentiated between the two but did not (in depth) explain the main differences), gained access to Jerusalem and committed a series of atrocities, in order to force the population to war. In one account, given in the Talmud, they destroyed the city's food supply, so that the people would be forced to fight against the Roman siege instead of negotiating peace. Their leaders, including Menahem ben Jair, Eleazar ben Ya'ir, and Bar Giora, were important figures in the war, and Eleazar ben Ya'ir eventually succeeded in escaping the Roman onslaught. Together with a small group of followers, he made his way to the abandoned fortress of Masada, where he continued his resistance to the Romans until 73 CE, when the Romans took the fortress and found that most of its defenders had committed suicide rather than surrender.


Masada, looking towards the Dead Sea.In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 CE, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad. Josephus particularly associates them with the mass suicide at Masada in 73 CE and to the subsequent refusal "to submit to the taxation census when Cyrenius was sent to Judea to make one" (Josephus) as part of their religious and political scheme as resistance fighters:

"Some of the faction of the Sicarion...not content with having saved themselves, again embarked on new revolutionary scheming, persuading those that received them there to assert their freedom, to esteem the Romans as no better than themselves and to look upon God as their only Lord and Master" (quoted by Eisenman, p 180).
In the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii. This meaning is lost when the Gospels are translated into modern Hebrew: Judas is rendered as "Ish-Kerayot," making him a man from the townships. Robert Eisenman presents the general view of secular historians (Eisenman p 179) in identifying him instead as "Judas the Sicarios". Most of the consonants and vowels tally—in Josephus, Sicarioi/Sicariōn; in the New Testament Iscariot (Eisenman 1997 pp 179 etc).
 

Roadquest,


Very awesome explaination, but I have another question after the first crusade Duke Godfrey found a code of knights with the same meaning as protect christianity with Jesus is the only lord and master something like that. Does this mean that the aim of the sicarii that lead by Judas in the time of Jesus was continued by this knight and becomes this knights templar?
 

Dear SICARII;
I am unsure of your question, my friend, however I shall attempt to answer it as best I am able to. Godfrey of Bouillion did not found any chivalric or religious Order that I am aware of, however he is included as one of the three Christian knights who portrayed perfect chivalry, along with eight others, those being three pagans, two other Christians and three Jews. Together they formed the basis of the Nine Worthies as was first written by Jacques de Longuyon in 1312.

The Templars were a Christian monastic lay Order, formed along the same principles and rule of the Order of Cistercians, which are more popularly known as Trappists. This Order was was greatly influenced by St. Bernard of Clairvaux, and the Templars and the Cistercians were formed less than one year apart. In fact, the two Orders were so close to each other in doctrine, rubrics and dress that for the first 40 years of the existence of the Templars, there were no outward differences between the two Orders.

Also, the Templars and the Cistercians were bound by mutual agreements to always support one another in all things, in much the same way that modern nations defend their allies. This mutual agreement withered somewhat after 1187, when the Cistercians were successful in forming their own military Order, the Order of Calatrava. After the Templars were disbanded in 1312, the Portuguese Order of Christ arose to prominence, having been formed by a great many former Templars and also many former Calatravans. Dom Gil Martinez became the first Grand Master of the Order fo Christ, having previously been with the Order of Aviz, which itself was a branch of the Calatravan Order.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Lamar,


Thank you for that answer, so templar knights already exist before duke godfrey?


SICARII
 

Dear SICARII;
You asked:
Thank you for that answer, so templar knights already exist before duke godfrey?

The answer is no, my friend. Godfrey of Bouillon was born around 1060AD somewhere in Lower Lorraine. He was a part of the First Crusade, which stormed Jerusalem on the 14th and 15th of July, 1099AD. Godfrey was elected king, although he preferred the title of Defender of the Holy Sepulchar. Godfrey of Boullion perished sometime around June 1100AD after contracting an unknown illness, aged 40 years.

The Knights Templars were formed after the First Crusade, sometime in 1119AD, by Hugh de Payens and his relative, Godfrey de Saint-Omer. Please note that Godfrey de Saint-Omer and Godfrey de Bouillon were not related in any way. Also, it is uncertain of the relationship between hugh de Payens and Godfrey de St. Omer. Some think that they were cousins, while others think they may have been brothers, and there also exists a small percentage who feel that Godfrey de. St. Omer may have been Hugh de Payens son. There also exists the possibility that Godfrey de St. Omer may have been the nephew of Hugh de Payens and the known genelogical trees of these two families support this hypothesis.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

LAMAR



According the book "Holy blood and the holy grail". It is Godfrey of bullion formed the knights templar in the mountain of Sion near Jerusalem. Now it is clear to me that its a different Godfrey. Thank you very much. Among the knights of the first crusade, Duke of Bullion is my favorite.


Friend,

Jocris
 

Dear SICARII;
The book, Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, is an interesting fiction novel, my friend, however it in no way relates to the actual historical events which surrounded the Crusades nor the formation of the Knights Templars. The prominent and highly acclaimed British historian Richard Barber wrote:

“ The Templar-Grail myth... is at the heart of the most notorious of all the Grail pseudo-histories, The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail, which is a classic example of the conspiracy theory of history... It is essentially a text which proceeds by innuendo, not by refutable scholarly debate... Essentially, the whole argument is an ingeniously constructed series of suppositions combined with forced readings of such tangible facts as are offered ”

That pretty much sums up the question of using texts like The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail as reliable historic reference data, at least as far as I am concerned, my friend. Godfrey of Bouillon played no part in the formation of the Knights Templars, as he had passed away nineteen years prior to the formation of the Knights Templar. It was King Baldwin II who approved Hugh de Payens and Godfrey de St. Omer's request that they form a Catholic religious military lay Order and it was also King Baldwin II who granted them land on the Temple Mount, to be used as the headquarters of their Order. It was because of the headquarters on the Temple Mount that the Order soon came to be known as the Templars.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Templar treasure fact may be lost to History, but by studying timelines, events and how they fit we can surmise and extrapolate the likeliest scenario;

The disappearance of Templar Treasure gave rise to Scottish and English Banking systems and Families, as noted previously within Switzerland, England and Scotland. These families and Systems continue today, including Royal Families that still control large segments of the worlds economy. The Incorpororated City of London maintains control over Currency and metals trading, a single day of currency trading is roughly equivalent to a year of trading on the NYSE.
This is real economic power and natural extension of bank Cheque System created by Templars from taxing individual wealth to service and tax the wealth of Nations

The treasure didnt disappear, it evolved from regional bank system pilgrims used to protect their wealth, into a world banking system used by peoples and Nations. The best place to hide something is out in the open.
 

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