When did Waltz 1st go to LDM?

[coazon de oro]

In the January 1895 article from the S.F. Chronicle by P. C. Bicknell, Julia’s information from Waltz is relayed to us, or at least how Waltz got the mine.

In the article, it says 1863 was when 😳
Why that date didn’t stick in my mind, or how I missed that, is beyond me 🥴😵‍💫

Up until now, I was thinking it was somewhere between later 1860’s to early 1870’s.

I bring it up, because it seems not many of us were aware of the date given in that article… or we all forgot. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I don’t recall anywhere else that gives a date?
If anyone would have had opportunity to learn of this date, from the horses mouth, it would have been Julia, who spent many months caring for Waltz, and he WAS trying to bring Julia up to speed on “his mine” and how he got it.

That’s it, unless someone out there has seen another date 🤷🏼‍♂️👍

If the story is correct, then it was the winter of 1863/1864 that Waltz closed up and buried “his mine”.
Over 160 years ago. 🤔

Idahodutch

Howdy Idahodutch,
The year that Jacob Waltz first went into the mine can only be 1871.

 

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Idahodutch,
The year that Jacob Waltz first went into the mine can only be 1871.

Good morning Homar,
Please, do tell 🙂

 

[coazon de oro]

Good morning Homar,
Please, do tell 🙂

Howdy Mr. Ragsdale,
It comes from Waltz himself, from his deathbed confession. He said he was coming from Picket post when he ran into some Indians, and lost his mule because of it. He was looking for his mule when he came upon a camp, and waited there. At the time he didn't know it was a Mexican's camp, he just knew it wasn't an Indian camp.
Three Mexican's showed up later, and after some time told Waltz that they had been working a gold mine, and had enough to live a good life. They told him that they would show him the mine the next day. Waltz ended up killing all three the next day to make sure no one else knew where that mine was, but him.
He took the Mexican packed animals to Fort McDowell and sold the ore there.
Picket post was started as Pinal Camp in 1870, it was renamed in 1871 as Camp Picket Post and abandoned nine days later. So it could only be during those nine days of 1871 that Waltz could have known he was coming from Picket Post, and went to the mine the next day.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Howdy Mr. Ragsdale,
It comes from Waltz himself, from his deathbed confession. He said he was coming from Picket post when he ran into some Indians, and lost his mule because of it. He was looking for his mule when he came upon a camp, and waited there. At the time he didn't know it was a Mexican's camp, he just knew it wasn't an Indian camp.
Three Mexican's showed up later, and after some time told Waltz that they had been working a gold mine, and had enough to live a good life. They told him that they would show him the mine the next day. Waltz ended up killing all three the next day to make sure no one else knew where that mine was, but him.
He took the Mexican packed animals to Fort McDowell and sold the ore there.
Picket post was started as Pinal Camp in 1870, it was renamed in 1871 as Camp Picket Post and abandoned nine days later. So it could only be during those nine days of 1871 that Waltz could have known he was coming from Picket Post, and went to the mine the next day.

Coazon De Oro

One thing that's confusing. You stated; "He was looking for his mule when he came upon a camp, and waited there. At the time he didn't know it was a Mexican's camp, he just knew it wasn't an Indian camp". - How would Waltz have known it WASN'T an Indian Camp? As far as things go and what I was under the impression that, Waltz killed who he thought were Indians, but later found out they were Mexican upon observing the bodies - then throwing the bodies into the Mine. Being afraid of killing Mexicans - said nothing till his deathbed confession.

-SpartanOC

 

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Mr. Ragsdale,
It comes from Waltz himself, from his deathbed confession. He said he was coming from Picket post when he ran into some Indians, and lost his mule because of it. He was looking for his mule when he came upon a camp, and waited there. At the time he didn't know it was a Mexican's camp, he just knew it wasn't an Indian camp.
Three Mexican's showed up later, and after some time told Waltz that they had been working a gold mine, and had enough to live a good life. They told him that they would show him the mine the next day. Waltz ended up killing all three the next day to make sure no one else knew where that mine was, but him.
He took the Mexican packed animals to Fort McDowell and sold the ore there.
Picket post was started as Pinal Camp in 1870, it was renamed in 1871 as Camp Picket Post and abandoned nine days later. So it could only be during those nine days of 1871 that Waltz could have known he was coming from Picket Post, and went to the mine the next day.

Howdy Homar,
Thank you kindly for sharing. Maybe one day someone will get into the mine(s) and if they do, it may shed some light, or it may not 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Until then I’m glad we can talk about stuff.
There does seem to be (2) different stories.

We each have to go with what we think is going to get us to our goal. I believe you are just as certain of the Holmes account, as I am, about the story we got from Julia via Bicknell.

I am curious about something, I hope you are ok to talk about it.

How many mines are referenced in the Holmes account?

 

[coazon de oro]

Coazon De Oro

One thing that's confusing. You stated; "He was looking for his mule when he came upon a camp, and waited there. At the time he didn't know it was a Mexican's camp, he just knew it wasn't an Indian camp". - How would Waltz have known it WASN'T an Indian Camp? As far as things go and what I was under the impression that, Waltz killed who he thought were Indians, but later found out they were Mexican upon observing the bodies - then throwing the bodies into the Mine. Being afraid of killing Mexicans - said nothing till his deathbed confession.

-SpartanOC

Howdy Spartanoc,
It wasn't hard to tell the difference from an Indian camp, to that of a Mexican or American. Indian's didn't pack much, and used different tools, mostly hand made. They lived in the area, and had no need to pack much. Even today, you can see how much people pack in. I used to find wetback camps in my ranch years ago, they used very little firewood, sometimes there would be pieces of diced cactus around the small round circle of ashes.
That story of him killing Mexicans thinking they were Indians was made up to ease his conscience of what he had done. He had to talk about it someway, to live with it. That's why he confessed first before giving directions.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Homar,
Thank you kindly for sharing. Maybe one day someone will get into the mine(s) and if they do, it may shed some light, or it may not 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Until then I’m glad we can talk about stuff.
There does seem to be (2) different stories.

We each have to go with what we think is going to get us to our goal. I believe you are just as certain of the Holmes account, as I am, about the story we got from Julia via Bicknell.

I am curious about something, I hope you are ok to talk about it.

How many mines are referenced in the Holmes account?

Just one as far as I know, but it's a good one. Even if it is found, many will still be looking it.

 

[Idahodutch]

Just one as far as I know, but it's a good one. Even if it is found, many will still be looking it.

My friend,
At least one of us, if not both of us, are not at the LDM location. 😉

It is obvious that we both are very passionate about our findings, and what we consider good information.

I concur that most of the LDM lore seems to talk of only one mine.

However, field investigations are supporting there being (2), seemingly matching up with Bicks Jan 1895 article.

Hopefully another trip with more scanning will tell more. 👍

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

This is from Tom Kollenborn's website. Notice the 1868 date:

"Jacob Waltz did exist. His name appears on naturalization papers, census records, grain receipts, and other documents. Waltz did live in Phoenix from about 1868 until the time of his death on October 25, 1891. His death was well documented by local periodicals."

SpartonOC,
I would think that 1868 was an important time stamp for Waltz that he at that time, decided to settle.
Something someone does AFTER finding a rich gold deposit 🤔.
One wouldn’t want to pack around a big mule load of gold for very long, before finding a spot or two to hide the mule load. 😎

Sure sounds like the probabilities are that Waltz was first at his mine prior to settling in Phoenix.
Maybe even the winter of 1867/1868 🤷🏼‍♂️

I doubt Waltz would go back to the mine, until his mule load was about used up.

 

[Idahodutch]

I have to add …… if Waltz had first been to the mine earlier, like 1864,5, or 6 …… What was he doing from then until 1868 …. Property hunting?
All while carrying a heavy load or worrying about it. 😁🤷🏼‍♂️