When did Waltz 1st go to LDM?

[Idahodutch]

In the January 1895 article from the S.F. Chronicle by P. C. Bicknell, Julia’s information from Waltz is relayed to us, or at least how Waltz got the mine.

In the article, it says 1863 was when 😳
Why that date didn’t stick in my mind, or how I missed that, is beyond me 🥴😵‍💫

Up until now, I was thinking it was somewhere between later 1860’s to early 1870’s.

I bring it up, because it seems not many of us were aware of the date given in that article… or we all forgot. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I don’t recall anywhere else that gives a date?
If anyone would have had opportunity to learn of this date, from the horses mouth, it would have been Julia, who spent many months caring for Waltz, and he WAS trying to bring Julia up to speed on “his mine” and how he got it.

That’s it, unless someone out there has seen another date 🤷🏼‍♂️👍

If the story is correct, then it was the winter of 1863/1864 that Waltz closed up and buried “his mine”.
Over 160 years ago. 🤔

Idahodutch

 

[pokergodrules]

In the January 1895 article from the S.F. Chronicle by P. C. Bicknell, Julia’s information from Waltz is relayed to us, or at least how Waltz got the mine.

In the article, it says 1863 was when 😳
Why that date didn’t stick in my mind, or how I missed that, is beyond me 🥴😵‍💫

Up until now, I was thinking it was somewhere between later 1860’s to early 1870’s.

I bring it up, because it seems not many of us were aware of the date given in that article… or we all forgot. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I don’t recall anywhere else that gives a date?
If anyone would have had opportunity to learn of this date, from the horses mouth, it would have been Julia, who spent many months caring for Waltz, and he WAS trying to bring Julia up to speed on “his mine” and how he got it.

That’s it, unless someone out there has seen another date 🤷🏼‍♂️👍

If the story is correct, then it was the winter of 1863/1864 that Waltz closed up and buried “his mine”.
Over 160 years ago. 🤔

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

In the January 1895 article from the S.F. Chronicle by P. C. Bicknell, Julia’s information from Waltz is relayed to us, or at least how Waltz got the mine.

In the article, it says 1863 was when 😳
Why that date didn’t stick in my mind, or how I missed that, is beyond me 🥴😵‍💫

Up until now, I was thinking it was somewhere between later 1860’s to early 1870’s.

I bring it up, because it seems not many of us were aware of the date given in that article… or we all forgot. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I don’t recall anywhere else that gives a date?
If anyone would have had opportunity to learn of this date, from the horses mouth, it would have been Julia, who spent many months caring for Waltz, and he WAS trying to bring Julia up to speed on “his mine” and how he got it.

That’s it, unless someone out there has seen another date 🤷🏼‍♂️👍

If the story is correct, then it was the winter of 1863/1864 that Waltz closed up and buried “his mine”.
Over 160 years ago. 🤔

Idahodutch

Attaching a snip from the article, that gives the date.


Visual aids help 😁👍

 

[markmar]

IMO, was after the civil war.

 

[axer]

Attaching a snip from the article, that gives the date.

View attachment 2220585
Visual aids help 😁👍

Idahodutch, thanks for the post, it got me thinking and rereading other articles about the Peeples party in 1863 which I believe Waltz had joined. This party came all the way from Prescott to the Supes and killed many Apache at Bloody Tanks before retreating back to the Bradshaws where Waltz filed 2 more claims. According to members of the Peeples Party there was a huge number of Apache killed, maybe around 60 with another 60 or more chasing the party out of the mountains. Supposedly this location has been shunned by Apache since then which would perhaps make it a bit safer for Waltz to travel back through in later years if he had noticed anything on the 1863 trip. It's possible that Waltz first spotted the open hole and dump of what is now called the LDM in 1863 but since he already had a claim in the Bradshaws he put off further exploration in the Supes until after his loss of all 3 claims forced him to rerurn to the Supes. Personally I believe his first time to the mine was before he purchased his property in Phoenix so pre 1868.

 

[Idahodutch]

Hello Axer,
Before re-reading the article, I leaned towards late 1860’s, and favored 1868.

I can’t say where the 1868 came from. I wondered if I mis-read the article, thinking it said 1868, but who knows. 🤷🏼‍♂️

The claims he had near Prescott, I recall that there was Indian trouble …. It seems like a trip to Mexico near the start of the US civil war, may have been convenient timing.
Indian problems, and the civil war, could have had Waltz taking a break.
I seem to recall that Waltz got property near Phoenix, by the salt river. The time frame was approximately 1868.

I have been of the mindset that he had already been to the mine, and buried it prior to moving to Phoenix.
I also got the impression that Waltz had a full mule load of gold ore upon departing from his mine, and 3 caches…. A large one just inside of his sealed up and buried mine.
And (2) more caches, leftover from the Mexican miners that were working the Peralta mine above…

Between around 1868 when he moved to Phoenix area, and when he was at “his mine” years earlier, he doesn’t seem to have left much of a footprint, that I remember. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I got the impression that the Prescott efforts were not making Waltz rich.
After the superstitions, I don’t think Waltz ever went back to the Prescott area. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[Idahodutch]

The fact that Waltz had Julia memorize the information about Mexico, and the monumented trail, leads me to believe the story.
A guy would have to be a special sort of con man to do that if it wasn’t true. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I think he went to Mexico to get away from Indians, and the civil war.

However, 1863 is not after the civil war ends.
Did waltz change his mind while he was in Mexico ??

Much speculation is needed no matter direction 🥴

 

[Idahodutch]

IMO, was after the civil war.

It is possible. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[Idahodutch]

I don’t know 🥴, maybe the tales of gold bonanza over rode Waltz’ civil war concerns 😵‍💫🤷🏼‍♂️
We may never know some details. 😉

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The fact that Waltz had Julia memorize the information about Mexico, and the monumented trail, leads me to believe the story.
A guy would have to be a special sort of con man to do that if it wasn’t true. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I think he went to Mexico to get away from Indians, and the civil war.

However, 1863 is not after the civil war ends.
Did waltz change his mind while he was in Mexico ??

Much speculation is needed no matter direction 🥴

Hey Russ. Hope this finds you well...find any gold yet?

Waltz was in Arizona during the Civil War. But good catch on the 1863 date in Bick's article. Personally, I think Julia didn't tell Bick (or anyone else) the real story of what Waltz told her. Why would she? These were people that were trying to find a gold mine that she thought was hers as she was a close friend of Waltz. She told a couple of different stories to prominent gold-seekers such as Bick.

But I don't think she made most of the story up. I think she just used Waltz's history in the Bradshaws as background. We know Waltz filed on the Gross Lode with William Gross in Sept of 1863. Prior to that, say generally during1862, Waltz is believed to be in the vicinity of La Paz, working those placers. Also during 1862, Gross was going down Turkey Creek on his way to Tucson when he decided to go up a draw out of the creek, a shortcut as the creek turned north and he wanted to go south. Near the top of this draw he found an outcropping of gold, which he kept to himself. He came back in 1863 and filed a claim on it with Waltz. So 1863 is a good date for Waltz and a gold mine, it's just the wrong mine. I think Julia was probably aware of that.

Jacob Weiss later bought the discovery claim on the Gross Lode from William Gross. I think Waltz talked of his life experiences with Julia, and when she was pressed by competitors to give up info, she just used past events from Waltz's life to make up a story to tell them. We may never know what he actually told Julia about how he found the LDM. All we really know is that she was reportedly searching for it in the Supes. So by her actual actions we can say it's located in that area...IF we can believe the stories...

 

[axer]

I don’t know 🥴, maybe the tales of gold bonanza over rode Waltz’ civil war concerns 😵‍💫🤷🏼‍♂️
We may never know some details. 😉

Idahodutch, I understand why everything told to Julia by Waltz can be trusted as being true, nobody in Waltz' situation would lie to their closest friend when facing death. Since Waltz was occupied with losing mine claims in 1863,1864, and 1865, that leaves 1866 and 1867 as plenty of time for his trip down to Mexico and back with the monumented trail info. Then Waltz picks Phoenix to settle down in and purchases land where he seals gold ore in 3 sealed cans and buries them under the hearth as he builds his fireplace for his new shack. Rhiney later digs these up for Waltz and they go into the candle box.

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim and Axer,
I hope things are going well 🙂

I am glad you guys responded. 👍
I’m actually glad the article says 1863, because it shines a light on discrepancies.

You both have done more background research than I have, and I’m glad you’re sharing. 😁

that was like someone pulling back a curtain. 😎
That’s probably as close to the truth, as anyone could get.
that makes me wonder about how many skeletons may or may not actually be there. 🤔

PS - yes, I am doing much better, and I think about things. 😁

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Glad to hear you're doing better, Idaho! Axer has a good grip on Waltz's timeline and I agree it's possible that Waltz may have gone down to Old Mexico at some point. I should say rather that there's no evidence indicating he did, just stories.

I might be a bitter old skeptic, but I just don't see Julia telling Bick the truth as far as how to find the mine. I can't see her telling Bark or Charles Clark the truth either. Clark's story that he claimed came from Julia sounds like the "Two Germans" tale that was making the rounds about that time...and I've always been skeptical that Clark wouldn't have detected the similarities...so I think Clark was telling tall tales. He wrote about the tale again in 1925, saying it came from a "Jack Swartz" in 1878...so I have no idea what was going on but I only fall for "stories for greenhorns" once or twice before I figure out my leg's getting pulled

While we're at it, I'll go out on a limb and say I doubt Julia told Herman or Gottfried the truth either...Riney liked to play dumb with Herman, but it sounds to me like Riney didn't want to tell Herman much either. Just going by what little we know. What if Julia wasn't all that thrilled with Old Pete and Herman showing up to "help" look for the mine? Bark implied also that it was Old Pete that snuck off with Waltz's naturalization paperwork and other stuff...he never said the name in the "Bark Notes", just said the stuff had gone missing from Julia's belongings...seems like some gold went missing too, while she was at the graveyard. (Holmes story).

No, I doubt very much that Julia trusted any of them

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Oh...and with all that yappin', I forgot why I was replying and just ran off at the mouth.

To reply to your question, I believe Waltz first went to the mine sometime prior to his moving to Phoenix. So sometime between winter 1863/4 at the earliest and 1867 at the latest. I think the main problem was it was too dangerous to go back by himself.

I think it was the establishment of Ft. McDowell that sealed the deal. He moved to Phoenix once the Army had set up shop there (on the Verde). Coincidence? Maybe...maybe not

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim,
I think you on target about Julia not telling Bick about everything.
that article by itself doesn’t give enough information, or at least I was stopped short.

I think everyone that followed before me also were stopped short. 🥴

Maybe there was more near the end, that Julia didn’t tell 🤷🏼‍♂️
I highly suspect that the date of 1863 given by Julia, was not truth.

likewise, I highly suspect portions of the Holmes manuscript, are not the truth.

However, I’m a believer 😎

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Attaching a snip from the article, that gives the date.

View attachment 2220585
Visual aids help 😁👍

It doesn't help with answering 'When did Waltz 1st go to LDM? '

If true it nails the latest possible first date but in no way limits earlier visits.

 

[sdcfia]

. . .
No, I doubt very much that Julia trusted any of them

Bingo. Assuming that Waltz had a secret gold mine - somewhere, anywhere - and told Julia how to find it, why would she trust anyone with that information, whether it was true or not? Same goes for all the alleged "insiders" from the early days, IMO. Human nature prevails. People disinform others for their own benefit.

 

[Idahodutch]

Bingo. Assuming that Waltz had a secret gold mine - somewhere, anywhere - and told Julia how to find it, why would she trust anyone with that information, whether it was true or not? Same goes for all the alleged "insiders" from the early days, IMO. Human nature prevails. People disinform others for their own benefit.

Assuming that Bick published all Julia told him, then I would be inclined to say that Julia did not give Bick enough information to find Waltz’z mine. I am a believer in that she gave enough info to get to the vicinity.

The date is odd, but does match up with “finding a mine date”, like Jim mentioned.

I notice that the backstories between Homes and Julia differ.
I had been of the mind that since Julia had spent months with Waltz caring for him, that the backstory he was telling her was the one.
But … Maybe not 🤷🏼‍♂️

I was also of the mind that Waltz must have enough time to give Holmes the directions, and some details of the mine, but NOT enough time to have given most the rest of so called deathbed confession.
But …… maybe Waltz did give out 2 different stories 🤷🏼‍♂️

I’m a believer in the directions that were given to both…… because they match up to getting to not just the vicinity, but together, they get you to within a very small area.

Only secret withheld information might tell more. 🤷🏼‍♂️
But …. The Waltz Map,…. does it contain secret final instructions, or the final information 🤷🏼‍♂️

So I’m ok not having the exact date of when did Waltz 1st go to the LDM.
But …. I believe it was prior to moving to Phx., and after his workings near Prescott.

At least that is what the information is indicating.

Nice work everybody. Imo anyway 😉👍

 

[SPARTANOC]

This is from Tom Kollenborn's website. Notice the 1868 date:

"Jacob Waltz did exist. His name appears on naturalization papers, census records, grain receipts, and other documents. Waltz did live in Phoenix from about 1868 until the time of his death on October 25, 1891. His death was well documented by local periodicals."

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Just looking at the history of the area...It's highly unlikely that Waltz could've safely gone back to the mine prior to Fort McDowell being established. The patrols established from there, along with Fort Reno (basically a FOB for McDowell), would've at least made it possible...as the local Yavapai were pushed NE of the Tonto Basin, up into the Sierra Ancha and mountains to the east. In addition, San Carlos closed off things to the SE. So at that point, the Supes were essentially surrounded by Army troops that had Apache guides. The Supes were closed off to large bands and it would've been much safer for Waltz to try and get in there. Same thing with Elisha Reavis. He lived on the north side of Fort McDowell when it was established, had a farm up there, and was actually the local lawman in the area. Once the Indians had been pushed out of the Supes, he was able to take up his residence in Reavis Valley in the eastern Supes.

The Yavapai, Tonto, Hualapai and Mohave had made things pretty hot around Prescott prior to that. Waltz was very familiar with how hard it was, considering he was a signatory to the letter to the Governor asking for troops for protection. The Bully Bueno mine, which was very near to Waltz/Weiss's mine (Gross Lode) was repeatedly burned and sacked. It never really produced much because of the constant attacks, and the miners were run out of the area repeatedly. They even suspended work requirements to keep claims active because nobody wanted to be out there. I doubt much work was ever done on the Gross Lode by Waltz. I believe it's a patented claim today and is still being worked.

Waltz had a lot of time on his hands when he lived up in the Bradshaws. I often wonder what he did. I don't think he lived in town, because he was never in the newspaper. One possibility is that he lived out on Jacob Weiss's homestead out by Mayer and took up farming. But the area is so mineralized, I'd imagine he spent a lot of time prospecting also.