Where is all that Gold and Silver?

[FISHEYE]

Why would anyone make so many canals on a island?they could walk or canoe around the island to get to the other side.it had to be for some other purpose.like farming sea creatures.I dont think the pyramids were built useing clam shells as shovels.they had help from above.

 

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[Peg Leg]

I believe that the water may have been lower but regardless there was some serious engineering involved going on here and I do not believe the AIS had this skill BUT someone did.
Peg Leg

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Why would anyone make so many canals on a island?they could walk or canoe around the island to get to the other side.it had to be for some other purpose.like farming sea creatures.I dont think the pyramids were built useing clam shells as shovels.they had help from above.

I think the pyramids and canals were both made by hand with hard manual physical labor. The Ortona canals, for instance, were dug far inland around rapids to complete a canoe waterway system from Lake O. to the Gulf of Mexico. Pine Island is not a small island.
Did they raise fish? I dont know. Fish and oysters were abundant. They also ate turtles, alligators, seals(now extinct), whales and manatees. The archeologists tell us they did no farming.

 

[Zephyr]

Dell wrote: "One such ship that may have wrecked along the Florida cape was reported to be transporting life size Gold Statues of the 12 apostles being shipped to the mother Church in Spain. Fontenada, mentioned such a statue in the village in which he was captive."

Uh, sorry, I've seen no mention of this in his account (which I've read 3 times, and also have in front of me.)

Cornelius and all, this book should interest you:

Fontaneda's Memoir, 1575 (edited by David O. True)
Historical Association of Southern Florida
Reprint and Facsimile Series, 10th edition (1973)

It's an updated version of Buckingham Smith's work. It includes the Spanish text, and loads of notes. Most Florida libraries should have copies available (and there's always InterLibrary Loan if they don't, or if you're not in FL. )

 

[Chagy]

Dell wrote: "One such ship that may have wrecked along the Florida cape was reported to be transporting life size Gold Statues of the 12 apostles being shipped to the mother Church in Spain. Fontenada, mentioned such a statue in the village in which he was captive."

Uh, sorry, I've seen no mention of this in his account (which I've read 3 times, and also have in front of me.)

Cornelius and all, this book should interest you:

Fontaneda's Memoir, 1575 (edited by David O. True)
Historical Association of Southern Florida
Reprint and Facsimile Series, 10th edition (1973)

It's an updated version of Buckingham Smith's work. It includes the Spanish text, and loads of notes. Most Florida libraries should have copies available (and there's always InterLibrary Loan if they don't, or if you're not in FL. )

[/quote

Thanks for sharing....I will look it up right now

Chagy.....

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Did they raise fish? I dont know. Fish and oysters were abundant. They also ate turtles, alligators, seals(now extinct), whales and manatees. The archeologists tell us they did no farming. quote BCH

I dont mean to get off subject, but does anyone know what eels Fontenado is talking about in his memoirs?
"I will also mention, that in the rivers of fresh water are infinite quantities of eels, very savory, and enormous trout. The eels are nearly the size of a man, thick as the thigh, and some of them are smaller."


Here is an interesting link on the extinct Carribean monk seal or "sea wolf". ...the fat of which the Spaniards pay [coat] the bottom of the ships with at the Havana" (Roberts 1763).
http://www.monachus-guardian.org/mguard05/05infocu.htm


I believe the root that they made bread from was the coontie plant or zambia. Also possibly cattail roots were eaten.
They make bread from a certain root, such as I have described before as growing in swamps;

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The eels must be of the Anguila-anguila family . ( fresh water eels ) Cornelius

The European eel... I have never seen one here in South Florida.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The eels must be of the Anguila-anguila family . ( fresh water eels ) Cornelius

The European eel... I have never seen one here in South Florida.

You are right Cornelius. There is an American eel of the Anguilla family that spawns in saltwater and lives in brackish or freshwater with ocean access. They must have been more plentiful at one time.
http://research.myfwc.com/support/view_faqs.asp?id=37

 

[Chagy]

When I lived in Puerto Rico we would go every once in a while to the rivers to catch shrimp and every once in a while an eel would go in the net..and yes we did eat them and yes they taste really good.

 

[ivan salis]

we commanly catch eels in the st marys river on the fla / ga border area -- great catfish bait --kinda hard to get a grip on --they slime ya and wrap round your arm

 

[Peg Leg]

I have read post concerning the PIRATE FLEET of CARLOS and have read that he had 13 ships. Can anyone tell me what the size of these ships were and if he killed EVERYONE where did the crew come from?
There is a lot not being shown concerning this person and I feel is a lot of B.S.
Peg Leg

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have read post concerning the PIRATE FLEET of CARLOS and have read that he had 13 ships. Can anyone tell me what the size of these ships were and if he killed EVERYONE where did the crew come from?
There is a lot not being shown concerning this person and I feel is a lot of B.S.
Peg Leg

Carlos (Spanish nickname for Calusa Indian chief) had very large dugout canoes, which he used as many as fifty at a time to attack and attempt to capture a Spanish ship but was always unsuccessful as far as I know. I didnt know he had any ships of his own.

 

[rgecy]

Peg,

I have several pages of documents that talk about the fort of Carlos. The letters date to 1573 and he had held captive 20 Spanish sailors for at least 20 years. This means the wreck would have dated to 1553.

The fort of Carlos (Calusa) would have been located on the West Coast of Florida.

I have more info, but don't want to discuss any specifics right now.

Robert

 

[jeff k]

I've never read anywhere that Carlos attacked Spanish shipping. They acquired the treasure from shipwrecks along the coast. Gov. Menendez had Carlos killed, and since Fontaneda was his translator I'm sure he told the Spanish where the treasure pit was. In any event, Carlos' village was on Mound Key in Estero Bay, and it's an archaeological site now. No treasure hunting allowed.

http://www.floridastateparks.org/moundkey

 

[Chagy]

I've never read anywhere that Carlos attacked Spanish shipping. They acquired the treasure from shipwrecks along the coast. Gov. Menendez had Carlos killed, and since Fontenada was his translator I'm sure he told the Spanish where the treasure pit was. In any event, Carlos' village was on Mound Key in Estero Bay, and it's an archaeological site now. No treasure hunting allowed.

http://www.floridastateparks.org/moundkey

Jeff,

what makes you think that Fontaneda would know where the treasure pit was?
and if in fact he knew where it was and Menendez recover it there must have been a letter to the King stating so unless Menendez stole it
and if Menendez did stole it he could not done it by him self...

 

[rgecy]

I've never read anywhere that Carlos attacked Spanish shipping. They acquired the treasure from shipwrecks along the coast. Gov. Menendez had Carlos killed, and since Fontenada was his translator I'm sure he told the Spanish where the treasure pit was. In any event, Carlos' village was on Mound Key in Estero Bay, and it's an archaeological site now. No treasure hunting allowed.

http://www.floridastateparks.org/moundkey

Jeff,

Here is some reading on the subject.

 

[jeff k]

Fontaneda was held captive by Carlos for 17 years before escaping. He went back with Gov. Menendez, and acted as translator.

During the period between 1519 and 1617, when the Calusa Indians were at the height of their power, the King of Spain's “plate fleets” transported millions in New World gold, silver and precious stones. The leader of the Calusas was named Carlos, and he also ruled over a vast Indian federation that controlled the entire southern Florida coastal region. As tribute, the other Indians of the federation would give him most of the booty they collected whenever a ship sank along the eastern coast of Florida and they were able to salvage any of the cargo.

Accounts of Carlos’ wealth and power were recorded in the memoirs of a ship wrecked Spaniard. Hernando Fontaneda was only a boy of 13 en route to Spain when he found himself stranded on one of the Keys. He was soon taken captive by the Calusas and brought to the village of the chief, where he managed to amuse Carlos by performing songs and dances.

The young castaway’s life was spared and he spent the next 17 years as a member of the tribe. He learned several Indian dialects and served as a translator for Carlos in dealings with other tribes. Finally, when he was about 30, he managed to escape.

In the book entitled Narrative of Le Moyne, an artist who accompanied Laudonniere, mention is made of the proposed expedition that Fontaneda wanted to make back to try and recover some of the treasure Carlos had accumulated. “They (Fontaneda and his companion) also reported that he (Carlos) possessed a great store of gold and silver and that he kept it in a certain village in a pit not less than a man's height in depth and as large as a cask; and that, if I could make my way to the place with a hundred arquebusiers, they could put all the wealth into my hands besides what I might obtain from the richer of the natives.”

When Fontaneda eventually found passage to Spain, he wrote an account of his experiences in Florida and delivered it to the King of Spain. By doing this, he hoped to win favor and enter the King's service. In one section of Fontaneda's memoirs, dated 1575, there are several references to Calusa wrecking activity and the tribe's enormous wealth. The following is but one example: “I desire to speak of the riches found by the Indians of Ais, which perhaps were as much as a million dollars or over, in bars of silver, gold, and in articles of jewelry made by the hands of the Mexican Indians, which the passengers were bringing with them. These things Carlos divided with the caicques of Ais, Jeaga, Guacata, Mayajuaco and Mayaca, and he took what pleased him, or the best part.”

http://www.treasurelore.com/florida/fontaneda.htm

 

[Zephyr]

what makes you think that Fontaneda would know where the treasure pit was?
and if in fact he knew where it was and Menendez recover it there must have been a letter to the King stating so unless Menendez stole it
and if Menendez did stole it he could not done it by him self...

It's more than likely Menendez got his hands on it, if any was there. Fontaneda complains that Menendez stiffed him of his pay (and apparently he wasn't the only one that happened to.)

 

[rgecy]

“They (Fontaneda and his companion) also reported that he (Carlos) possessed a great store of gold and silver and that he kept it in a certain village in a pit not less than a man's height in depth and as large as a cask; and that, if I could make my way to the place with a hundred arquebusiers, they could put all the wealth into my hands besides what I might obtain from the richer of the natives.”

The size of a cask is not too big! Unless I am misinterpreting the size of the cask.

Certainly this amount of gold and silver would be considered wealthy in those days. But that is minuscule to the amount of treasure these ships were carrying.

I have no doubt there is Spanish treasure that was buried by the Indians still waiting to be found. I would have to say though that the Spaniards knew about it and would have gone looking for it. They would have tortured any Indian they felt may know the location.

Don't get me wrong! I certainly pray that I will stumble across this fortune one day. It's out there!

 

[Salvor6]

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers dug parallel canals on many of the small islands around Tampa Bay back in the 30's for mosquito control.