white man came

[noluck]

so i have been reading about the laws on artifact hunting.and ones about Indian artifacts dont make any since to me at all.for one didnt the white man come here a kill indians and run them off there land.so its ok to come kill indian but you go to prison for picking up a arrowhead in a creek.if we wanted to know how they lived wouldnt we have just done what was right the first and only time.and to top it off the Indians still have rights to the stuff thats in the ground.how does all this make since.

 

[rock]

They are trying to make amends to the wrong doings of the past I do believe. We are in the wrong for picking them up according to the laws. Every time I see a farmer out in his fields or close to his home I stop and talk to see if I can hunt his property. Works sometimes. I dont care to go to their front doors and knock. I feel it might be intruding on their privacy and I might see a shotgun. If you hunt on private property you are fine.

 

[Tnmountains]

No we are not wrong in picking them up.I am tired of the Government sticking its nose into every aspect of our way of lives and putting themselves above the people. The Government is employed by me and works for me. Yet I see them collecting arrowheads and taking them from others . They milk the system. I am going to do a video and every artifact I find on federal land I will show in the video and throw it into deep water. That is what they want to happen it is out of it's archeological context that is what all the archeologist gripe about anyway's so there ya go. So that is what they will get. Grrrrrr. No law against skipping arrowheads.
Ok am I ranting now? I get tired of them nit picking when they could actually go help someone and not hinder honest tax payers.

 

[TeAra]

I agree with rock when it comes to private property collecting. But I also agree with the laws of the government. Reason I say that is because there are some people out there who take it way past the point of collecting. Example we "HAD" a cave locally here that belonged to a chief from the Cherokee Tribe that lived here. I reside in the Cherokee Forest. Folks around caught wind of it and managed to get into the cave and stole everything that was in there. Thank goodness they did not disturb the body but took the artifacts from there and then tried to sell them. People heard about it and turned them in and in the end they went to jail because of the laws on preservation of these artifacts and the artifacts were returned to the cave and then the cave was sealed up.

 

[catherine1]

No respect or values today. And yes the government is way out of control. Everything is for the government, by the government. More laws=more government/attorneys. The grave robbing story is a good law but it is the same for all graves.
We have a graveyard on our farm and my uncle showed me a big depression in it where some one tried to dig up a grave. My Great grandfather is buried in this cemetery. Greed seems to be rampant today. This global economy idea isn't working very well for the common man.

 

[rock]

I work in retail. I am not saying people dont need help from our taxes. But when people are getting my hard earned money to buy with it makes me angry that the govt. doesnt monitor their spending on what they buy with their cards. Then turns around and fines people for picking up a arrowhead (not graves). You should see the steaks they buy. I am talking 2 inch thick steaks. I cant even get a good steak anymore and I work allot. I say monitor those food cards and see what they are using them for before you spend so much money on stopping our hobby. Fix the main spending problems before starting another project.

 

[GrizLeeBear]

Here is an alternative view about artifact hunting on government land, such as National Parks. That land and all it holds belongs to all of us. When you pick up an arrowhead you are, in a way, stealing it from all of us. Take for example Mount Rushmore. Almost everyone who goes there wants to pick up one of the stones from the tailings pile. There are over three million visitors a year. How long would it take before that pile disappeared?

I believe places like a National Forest or National Grassland should be more open, but I do not have a problem with National Parks, National Monuments and National Battlefields being closed to collecting. Would it be right for a group of us with metal detectors going to a place like Little Bighorn and stripping that ground of all artifacts so we could put them on our shelf or sell them on eBay? How about Gettysburg, Shiloh or Chicamaugua?

I would love to hunt some of those places, but whatever I found goes to the park. It does not belong to me just because I dug it out of the ground. Each artifact on such ground belongs to all of us.

 

[bsit1361]

I have very little fields to hunt and I only get them for a month or so a year. Besides that I stick to creeks river and tidal. Already out if context and usually has been for some time. If the rangers wanted to get us they could have a million times. I think that they over look us a lot because they see it as what's the harm. That's just my area. I know its different elsewhere and I'm sure that's not every ranger either. I have spoken to a few and they don't look the other way for diggers. We have turtle nesting sites that were completely wiped out last year from diggers even though they were marked! They estimated that 15% was predator and 85% was collectors. Also us surface and water hunters would like to collect for many years to come so when the diggers see us coming upriver or through the woods they usually take off. Funny that all their license plates are from the surrounding states too. Go destroy your own sites! We don't find alot and we are ok with that. I don't need to walk out with 20. 2 or 3 is fine and I'm happy but if your going to drive and hour from Delaware or Pennsylvania your going to break out the shovels and sifters. Stay in your state if you aren't going to respectfully enjoy your hobby.

 

[catherine1]

Yes give to Caesar what belongs to him. But Caesar doesn't have enough sense to trade a bushel of wheat for a barrel of oil. I don't visit government owned land. If they have artifacts let them find them. And they would probably sell them to pay off their spend thrift debt. But why do that when they can haul you to jail and get your artifacts and threaten you with more jail until you pay them to stay out. Its not their money to prosecute you.. This country is done. And the sh1t is ready to hit the fan. Food stamps is the government wall to stifle you. The taxes that we pay now are 10 times what we escaped from the British. Yet they still copy British laws today. The gun thing is not going to happen because to many people realize that a gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one. You will probably never need one Again! Socialism will end soon! I don't pay taxes and I am not on government assistance. I will not fund this government. We need to starve them.

 

[GatorBoy]

I agree with the points both TNmountains and Grizleebear made. As far as sifting or not I think what you are displacing ... like riverbank or river bottom.. would make a difference beyond that I don't think anyone likes people taking what they might otherwise find... but that's something different altogether. I don't understand how something on public property that belongs to "all of us"... sometimes maintained by people on "our" payroll... that has long since been isolated from any context could be in a "free" society..off limits to pick up. It should be no different then picking up a penny on the ground. Maybe it's a wheat penny made in 1912... that is now a 100 year old artifact... what then? Where I see this headed if some very specific action isn't taken soon is the path of least resistance. That's almost always the road taken... and unfortunately that would mean making everything that is not on private property that you have permission to remove off limits...with an age specific detail.

 

[Doodle Bug]

Very interesting thread.
If artifacts are left in the ground, they might never be seen by anyone.
If found on the surface and left, they could be stepped on and destroyed forever.
If dug or picked up from the surface, there is a chance that they could one day end up in a display case and benefit everyone.
An archaeologist would probably wish to have all the details associated with the artifact.
Many of the artifacts may be from an indigenous group of people with no ties whatsoever to modern man, white or any other color.
I try to document all finds to the best of my knowledge and hope others do the same.

With regards to law.
I offer no advice, I am not a lawyer!

--Doodle Bug

"The Earth is saturated with history, all we need to do is extract it." - Doodle Bug

 

[Tnmountains]

Jimmy Carter like to collect artifacts and arrowheads. He changed the law (ARPA act 1979?) so that any arrowhead collected on the surface of Federal land was legal. This means no digging. I am good with that. The Federal government excludes all fines and penalties for a surface find. But and this is what makes me mad. They put in a statement right after that saying you can not remove it from Federal land. This is where they get you. You can pick them up and walk around all day with them you just can not leave. It is ridiculous.

Archeology's historical roots run deep in the plundering and pillaging of sites for colleges. It was a license for free access.They often forget they evolved from treasure hunters themselves. Context is a big word with them because in context it might tell a story. Out of context there is no story to be told. Most surface finds are out of context. We had a village site here with hundreds of graves. They were testing it before a large corporation went in. The site was showing burials of women with 24'' stone blades and amazing discoveries. Bit instead of having archeological students work the site for years they said well it is a Mississipian site and nothing we have not seen before so they brought in the dirt and gravel and covered the village with a trucking center. So on their own omission because of money and progress they let it go.They did not take a stand.But you can only fill the basements so full at the college.

Now you take a walk on federal land and see and arrowhead out of context on the ground and pick it up. You are now possibly guilty of theft with hefty fines and court charges.They do not even follow the laws themselves and wait till you exit the land. It happens often and they use the man power and resources to patrol and look for just this activity. So the guys have been patrolling 3 days on your tax money see a guy stop him he has a broken arrowhead in his pocket they bust him put it in the paper he pays the fine and court cost which would hardly amount to one days pay roll for the guys that patrol all for a guy with a broken arrowhead. Look at the fiasco out in the 3 corners and how they set people up and ruined lives.

I believe in protecting significant sites on public land and they do need protection from looters. There are people with out ethics no doubt. We had a site here that was protected. People had hunted it for years as it was falling into the river. Familys would have picnics on it and dig.(ever wonder where the word pot hole came from?) It was bad and finally got the protection it needed. Yay! They hired some local chapter of Indians to guard it and gave them guns. The next thing you know story has it the Indians are digging at night!!! Well we never heard another peep on that. Good thing is the Park service took it over. I have the utmost respect for them and their duties.

My grief is not with the Archeological community but the ridiculous laws on surface hunting and especially on water ways where 1.It is out of context and 2. Is being washed to deep water to never be seen again. It will never ever see the light of day again or held in the hand to be admired and history felt. This is preferable to them. It is not just artifacts that are under attack it the whole of treasure hunting wether it is rock and gem collecting or metal detection or looking for Gold to digging out a privy. The government does not want anyone that has a hunter gatherer instinct to collect and forage. Pretty soon it will be a world of geo -caching only with tootsie toys.
My rant is complete here.

 

[NC field hunter]

No we are not wrong in picking them up.I am tired of the Government sticking its nose into every aspect of our way of lives and putting themselves above the people. The Government is employed by me and works for me. Yet I see them collecting arrowheads and taking them from others . They milk the system. I am going to do a video and every artifact I find on federal land I will show in the video and throw it into deep water. That is what they want to happen it is out of it's archeological context that is what all the archeologist gripe about anyway's so there ya go. So that is what they will get. Grrrrrr. No law against skipping arrowheads.
Ok am I ranting now? I get tired of them nit picking when they could actually go help someone and not hinder honest tax payers.

Well said!! Skipping stones is our last freedom.

 

[jamey]

i know so many that hunt rivers in tenn,and have been for years that you wouldnt think there would be any left to find.the days of hundreds of points laying around is over,not much left to be found around my parts of the country.so not really worth archeys going out to study the area anymore so i think the ones in charge of taking care of our lands should sell a license to surface hunt artifacts.everyone would win because there would be law abidden ones out there making sure the grave diggers would stop.they wouldnt have to patrol because id do it for them as i belive graves no matter whos they are should be left alone unless washed away laying far away from it.after all they make us pay to fish and hunt game and they seem to manage it well,it would be a huge step forward for everyone involed

 

[GatorBoy]

We need to bring back the isolated finds act created in part by Jimmy Carter with just a little new language to address the current issues. There is a proposal in Florida to issue a citizen archaeological permit. There is info on it here. www.paleoenterprises.com please read this if you are interested in what may be possible. If it works in one state it will set president for others to follow.

 

[bci101tractors]

nevermind

 

[bci101tractors]

Yes give to Caesar what belongs to him. But Caesar doesn't have enough sense to trade a bushel of wheat for a barrel of oil. I don't visit government owned land. If they have artifacts let them find them. And they would probably sell them to pay off their spend thrift debt. But why do that when they can haul you to jail and get your artifacts and threaten you with more jail until you pay them to stay out. Its not their money to prosecute you.. This country is done. And the sh1t is ready to hit the fan. Food stamps is the government wall to stifle you. The taxes that we pay now are 10 times what we escaped from the British. Yet they still copy British laws today. The gun thing is not going to happen because to many people realize that a gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one. You will probably never need one Again! Socialism will end soon! I don't pay taxes and I am not on government assistance. I will not fund this government. We need to starve them.

Say what... you don't pay taxes Thats fine, I assume you don't use any public roads either right? If so, your welcome, if not I'm sorry. About half of my money goes to taxes, filled with the blood, sweat and tears of most red blooded American hard working middle class.

 

[TeAra]

Sorry but to me paying taxes should not give the right for anyone to say Hey I can take that because I paid for it. That would be like me (being of Indian decent 1/3 Chippewa to be exact) making people who collected an artifact from the Chippewa lands hand them over to me because my family owns it in my eyes. But this is my opinion.