Why is MD prohibited so much?

[haxor]

I can only come up with the "holes left behind" argument. (somewhat valid, but a poor argument)

Saw one state sight that claimed "the removal of buried items can wreak significant damage to natural resources". I call utter BS

I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

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[ivan salis]

sadly people often think of metal detectorist as "greedy grubbers" looking to loot the "public's historical goods for private profiet"... and some folks also have the "blocker mindset" ... sort of like the way when some folks hear someone hit the lotto big time and they in their grubby greedy little minds minds go "screw that guy" --I bought a ticket too, so how come I didn't win it ? --these misery moungers can not be happy for others success only their own , matter of fact they like to block others success to make their own lack of success seem "seem " more normal" to them rather than view themselves as failures...

 

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[Red James Cash]

Because greedy people hate seeing somebody else get something,that they cant have,for nothing.Especially the power trippers,you know who i'm referring tooWhen actually our equipment costs us.

 

[adamBomb]

Its much easier to say 'no metal detecting' than have to deal with any issue/situation. Kinda like saying no dogs on the beach or the no tolerance policies in schools. the fact that you cannot metal detect on gov land is ridiculous. I think they are scared there will be these 10 ft deep holes everywhere.

 

[sandswimmer]

Contributors to the negative side of MDing...
>The ones that MD on school property during school hours or when after school activities are going on.
>MDing in public sports parks while events are taking place
>Carrying a large shovel anyplace in public/populated areas
>Detecting curb strips and not using common sense, if well kept the homeowner has pride in it...Don't argue with objecting homeowners to the point they call the police or their councilman.
>Digging holes on public beaches and not filling them...sure kids do it, but why make yourself a target for expulsion. We are few, they are many
>Beach detecting when the beaches are packed. Beach goers/tourist are the majority and what the chamber of commerce want ... not you!
.....Most of these are corrected by just using common sense, unfortunately not all MDers posses this. SS

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Its much easier to say 'no metal detecting' than have to deal with any issue/situation....

Exactly. Such was the psychology when "R.W. Doc Grimm" went to write the book "Treasure Laws of the United States" in the 1980s. It was the first attempt to organized, into compendium list form, the 50 state's state-park dept. rules concerning the issue of md'ing in their state's parks. A sort of for-runner to the current version which the FMDAC has on their website.

The idea was genius: Send a letter to each of the 50 states heads-of-their state park asking "what are the laws/rules concerning the use of metal detectors in your state's parks". R.W. Doc would simply compile all 50 answers, when he received them back in the mail, to compile in his alphabetic book. Genius idea, right ? I mean, who-better-to-ask, than the state's themselves, eh ? And then RV travelers could merely carry this book with them when travelling across the USA, to take the guess-work out of it, eh ?

But oddly, many of the states that had, up-till-then, been no problem, all of the sudden had "dire sounding verbage". Or outright no's, etc... Huh ?? Since when. Admittedly some of them could cite actual "no md'ing" rules. But many others simply relied on verbage about cultural heritage, disturbing the vegetation, taking & removing, blah blah .

Ok, so what happened then ? EXACTLY AS YOU SURMISE HERE! Imagine yourself in the pencil-jockey's desk where that letter landed (perhaps forwarded to legal counsel? Perhaps forwarded to the state's archie ?). You know full well that even though 95% of all their state park's land might not be historically themed. Ie.: NOT sensitive historic monuments. Yet perhaps some were sensitive or historically themed. Thus even though the other 95% were boring beaches, campgrounds, forests, innocuous sandboxes, etc.... they would still say "no to all". Why? Because there's no way in heck they're gonna be able to say "yes at these places, but no at the historic cabin at such such park, blah blah blah". They can't split hairs on exactly where. Thus much easier to say "no to all".

And as I say, this was occurring at places where you could, prior to that, detect to your heart's content (so long as you avoided obvious historic sensitive monuments and had half a brain). Such began the md'rs becoming their own worst enemy, and putting "pressing questions" in front of "bored pencil pushers". Aaarrggh.

 

[JOe L]

I see everyone saying why there is detecting restrictions but no one saying what we can do about it. It's not going to get better, and sooner or later the don't ask if no indication is given restricting, is gonna run out.
Your going to have these $1000 detectors and at that time hopefully it's not illegal to dig in your own yard cause thats gonna be it.....
One thing I do know, a park ranger can NOT make up the rules but for some reason, he or she, doesn't know this here in NY. We have 100 people telling a million people what they can do or can't. Maybe we need a presidential canadate who is a metal detectorist. Oh, hell, gonna go have a beer.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... no one saying what we can do about it......

It depends on what you think constitutes a "prohibition". If there is a true rule that came into play somewhere, you're welcome to form solidarities and fight to get it repealed. But my hunch is, that any such "further red flags and attention", will probably only FURTHER entrench their stance. But you're welcome to try.

But if by "prohibition" you meant anyone (or yourself) getting a "scram", just based on ancillary "deface" or "alter" verbage, then no, I don't consider those instances to be "prohibitions". Other than the immediate lip-service on the spot-type-thing, of course.

.... sooner or later the don't ask if no indication is given restricting, is gonna run out.
... .

to whatever extent this is true, the more sure-fire-faster way to get "prohibitions", is to go making ourselves an object in need of their princely attention. To run around "seeking clarification" and "permissions" is the faster way to make things "run out" for us.

..... a park ranger can NOT make up the rules....

They can't "make up rules", but they can interpret/implement rules as needed-to-fit situations as-they-arise. Why do you think there are vague rules that forbid "annoyances" ? So too can a ranger decide that our actions constitute "disturb" statutes. So that's not "making up" a rule, is it ? However, the mere fact that a ranger may have that latitude, does not mean I'm going to go asking ahead of time (lest it merely become a self-fulfilling safe "yes").

 

[JOe L]

It depends on what you think constitutes a "prohibition". If there is a true rule that came into play somewhere, you're welcome to form solidarities and fight to get it repealed. But my hunch is, that any such "further red flags and attention", will probably only FURTHER entrench their stance. But you're welcome to try.

But if by "prohibition" you meant anyone (or yourself) getting a "scram", just based on ancillary "deface" or "alter" verbage, then no, I don't consider those instances to be "prohibitions". Other than the immediate lip-service on the spot-type-thing, of course.



to whatever extent this is true, the more sure-fire-faster way to get "prohibitions", is to go making ourselves an object in need of their princely attention. To run around "seeking clarification" and "permissions" is the faster way to make things "run out" for us.



They can't "make up rules", but they can interpret/implement rules as needed-to-fit situations as-they-arise. Why do you think there are vague rules that forbid "annoyances" ? So too can a ranger decide that our actions constitute "disturb" statutes. So that's not "making up" a rule, is it ? However, the mere fact that a ranger may have that latitude, does not mean I'm going to go asking ahead of time (lest it merely become a self-fulfilling safe "yes").

Reading what you are saying and I do understand your views. Unless it's is private property, I am not one to go looking for someone to ask, if there is nothing stating no-go.
I'm just saying, even myself, other than bringing our hobby to light, how else can you fight for a right.
Your saying hey if they don't know, they won't care, in a round about way. Don't you think that's gonna run its course and now is the time to stand up for our hobby and bring it to light.
cause, I'm not sure if that's the way to head,, or not. , signed, Confused.

 

[ARC]

Skippy, good post. "Perception" is one way to put it. And "connotations" is another. Such that EVEN if you leave absolutely no trace, and EVEN though no one really cares about that buffalo nickel underground, and EVEN though you wont' waltz over beach blankets and kick sand in peoples faces, yet ..... how does the busy-body observer know that ? In the administrator's view of things, they may think "gee do we really want all these yahoos out here making a mess?" (even though you may leave ABSOLUTELY NO MESS).

Thus yes: Actual outcome is most often NOT the reason for bans. It's often only "mental images" "connotations", and "perceptions".

And the best way to STOP those perceptions from coming their minds, is to stay off their radar, such that they think as little about you, as possible. If that means hunting at night, or before 8am, and so forth, so-be-it.

Kind of like nose-picking: not necessarily illegal, but .... sheeesk, don't we ALL sort of of ... uhh... pick discreet times to do it, so as not to offend people ? Same concept for md'ing. If someone might not like it, then for pete's sake, don't air your dirty laundry in front of that particular person.

Could not have said it better.
Agreed.
"out of sight... out of mind".
I am an AMr... done and gone by 9ish...to 10 max... if a weekday and no one really around... then its the latter...
and if I am not gone by this time... detector is off and I am either sitting back enjoying the morning salt air... thinking... OR
I am swimming... even just walking around.
There ARE more things to do than detect... LIKE... nothing

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...... Don't you think that's gonna run its course.....

It's apparent that your mental image of my stance is that

a) people will dis-like what you and I are doing, and thus get all hot & bothered. Why is that a premise ? Since when is that a given ? I have people come up to me all the time with "what's the best thing you've ever found?" and "where can I buy one of those?", etc.... So it's not exactly a "given" that md'rs are "always gonna be told scram". Sure it can happen, but .... just saying .... I sense from your text that you give this fear a lot higher "imminence" than I have.

b) that someone (as I suggest) who "avoids the limelight" (ie.: doesn't go at high noon wearing neon orange, and , instead, chooses, uh .... "more opportune" times so as not to attract scrutiny/kill-joys) is therefore: "Bound to be caught". And "bound to be booted". Since when is this a given ? I mean, if that's the true outcome, then the person is doing a bad job of correctly choosing his times wisely enough. NOT that the tactic is flawed.

Again, not saying that such things as you fear aren't theoretically possible. But also trying to point out that the OPPOSITE reaction/tactic of thinking we should all "run around and pre-empt bootings, by fighting for our rights", is EQUALLY fraught with problems. Because often time that "big red X" on our backs can also just start a ball rolling that we don't want either.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...... Don't you think that's gonna run its course.....

It's apparent that your mental image of my stance is that

a) people will dis-like what you and I are doing, and thus get all hot & bothered. Why is that a premise ? Since when is that a given ? I have people come up to me all the time with "what's the best thing you've ever found?" and "where can I buy one of those?", etc.... So it's not exactly a "given" that md'rs are "always gonna be told scram". Sure it can happen, but .... just saying .... I sense from your text that you give this fear a lot higher "imminence" than I have.

b) that someone (as I suggest) who "avoids the limelight" (ie.: doesn't go at high noon wearing neon orange, and , instead, chooses, uh .... "more opportune" times so as not to attract scrutiny/kill-joys) is therefore: "Bound to be caught". And "bound to be booted". Since when is this a given ? I mean, if that's the true outcome, then the person is doing a bad job of correctly choosing his times wisely enough. NOT that the tactic is flawed.

Again, not saying that such things as you fear aren't theoretically possible. But also trying to point out that the OPPOSITE reaction/tactic of thinking we should all "run around and pre-empt booting by fighting for our rights", is EQUALLY fraught with problems. Because often time that "big red X" on our backs can also just start a ball rolling that we don't want either.

 

[Skippy SH13]

Contributors to the negative side of MDing...
>The ones that MD on school property during school hours or when after school activities are going on.
>MDing in public sports parks while events are taking place
>Carrying a large shovel anyplace in public/populated areas
>Detecting curb strips and not using common sense, if well kept the homeowner has pride in it...Don't argue with objecting homeowners to the point they call the police or their councilman.
>Digging holes on public beaches and not filling them...sure kids do it, but why make yourself a target for expulsion. We are few, they are many
>Beach detecting when the beaches are packed. Beach goers/tourist are the majority and what the chamber of commerce want ... not you!
.....Most of these are corrected by just using common sense, unfortunately not all MDers posses this. SS

I love how our city ordinance specifically states:


For me the picture sums up how we should ALL be behaving in a park.. if you're a soccer player, be an ambassador. If you're a jungle Gym user, be an ambassador... If you're a dog ball thrower, be an ambassador.

Thinking about that, while I'm out, changes the purpose of WHY I'm there... It's not just for what's in the ground.

Now... that being said, I FULLY recognize that being an ambassador is NOT for everyone. And many folks prefer the off hours, to intentionally avoid the people. My above comments are not to be reflected that I disagree that solution isn't perfect for THEM... It's only to suggest that everyone everywhere shouldn't be required to hide themselves.

When we HUMANIZE the hobby, we help break down barriers. I refuse to stay at home out of fear. I have too many great experiences in the prime time of the day (With PEOPLE, not always with the trash! ).

I LOVE showing up to the park with my metal detector, and often, my son in tow, when there are lots of people around. Sure, we initially get funny looks, but it's not too long before we're either engaged with people talking, or folks are back to doing their own thing. We have great experiences, hilarious conversations with folks, and get to show them we're keeping the parks CLEAN. In fact, I've been invited to several neighborhood parks to detect, that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to hunt, because of the trash cleanup aspect. People LIKE that we're a part of the community. Sure there's the idiot or two out there who are going to have negative attitudes, but those are the same idiots that complain about how the kids are making too much noise on the playground equipment, or complain that the soccer team practice is "hogging the lawn" that their dog can't now run in. Parks are made FOR the community, and the myriad of hobbies we enjoy.

My son and I have made a lot of positive impressions this way, and sure, it takes a bit of time away from the actual detecting, but the public is NOT going to be persuaded away from the belief that we're "abnormal" as long as every MDer out there hides from them, and disappears at the first sign of people. I've often wondered what kind of impression THAT leaves? Hmm??

I believe there's a balance to be struck. We should NOT fear going to into parks during use hours, simply because we want to hide our activity from the weirdos who choose to be judgmental. As you noted, a lot of this is just COMMON SENSE. Just as I'm not going to walk around someone's picnic area if I'm having a picnic near them, I'm not going to do it with my detector! If people are doing STUPID things with their detector THAT is far more damaging than the person who furthers the hobby by being polite, considerate, and friendly. Give people space, be friendly, and don't ACT creepy (I've actually SEEN a MDer "detect" around some girls sunbathing. Yeah... Boot HIM. It's not the detector that the problem, it's the creepy guy at the end of the handle.)

This is NOT to suggest that people who are going in the wee hours would, in the presences of people, make a menace of themselves, encroach on people's privacy, or disrupt events... (the STUPID things...) But if that IS the case, then absolutely I agree with you. Those people should definitely hunt in the off hours!



EDIT: Just finished reading Tom's last point. I think he makes some really valid points. It's absolutely true that if no one is around when I detect, there's no one to complain, and if we already have permission, we could "potentially" jeopardize that. It's certainly possible. In my city, things can't really get much better. I suppose there's a chance I could royally screw up an encounter and they could change the ordinance on the actions of me being stupid. I get that. I also don't think I'm going to stop. LOL I love the hobby, and hope my encounters are positive for those around me. I actually bought a bunch of cheap silver rings on eBay the other day (waiting for them to come in), to give to nice folks who come and chat up appropriately. I figure it'll be a fun way to get people to talk positively about the hobby. I certainly wasn't "bank broken" by the $5 I spent for the 10 rings. I also grabbed a roll of blank buffalo nickels to put on cards in little baggie (with the history of the nickel) as thank you cards for people who allow me to detect on their property (like the guy with the Snow Cone Shacks!)

I think there's things we all can do to help the hobby... and yeah, sometimes STAYING OFF THE CROWDED AREA is definitely one of them.

Great conversation, all... I've enjoyed this, and it's definitely helped me think about things. Especially you, Tom. Good stuff.

 

[Skippy SH13]

Could not have said it better.
Agreed.
"out of sight... out of mind".
I am an AMr... done and gone by 9ish...to 10 max... if a weekday and no one really around... then its the latter...
and if I am not gone by this time... detector is off and I am either sitting back enjoying the morning salt air... thinking... OR
I am swimming... even just walking around.
There ARE more things to do than detect... LIKE... nothing

I recently posted a thread about taking my detector on a Cruise in January... I decided just now, after reading this, (I'd been on the fence), that I'm NOT... I actually need to do a bit of nothing, and a beach sounds just like the place to do it.

 

[JOe L]

It's apparent that your mental image of my stance is that

I have people come up to me all the time with "what's the best thing you've ever found?" and "where can I buy one of those?", etc.... So it's not exactly a "given" that md'rs are "always gonna be told scram".

And that person is "usually" not a park ranger or park employee. Do I think we are given a bad rep for our hobby, no. But most of the people (i believe) who find our hobby interesting are not the ones causing us access troubles.
Again, I ask permission for private land and usually succeed with access. As for public, if there's no sign and I know of no rules against, I go for it, but always looking over my shoulder for that one person who will have a hard time due to me using my public land.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... As for public, if there's no sign and I know of no rules against, I go for it, but always looking over my shoulder for that one person who will have a hard time due to me using my public land.

Agreed. And you are a wise man to realize that you can't "please every last person on earth". Some people will have a hard time with the notion that there *might* be one person in a city of 100,000 that "doesn't like it" . A gardener or ranger etc..... Sure we ALL wish we had red-carpets rolled out for us by every last person, eh ? But I've come to realize, a long time ago, that if I wait for conditions like that, I'm going to relegated to boring sandboxes.

And .... heck .... I bet that EVEN IN SANDBOXES that there's probably someone in any given city who "doesn't like it". Thus sometimes we have to grow a set and just go detecting. Just use timing discretion to avoid such potentials. Ie.: if you showed up at a park, and that's the days they're mowing/maintaining that park, then for pete's sake, choose another park that day. Some people will call that "sneaking around". Ok, fine then, sneak around.

 

[Skippy SH13]

Some people will call that "sneaking around". Ok, fine then, sneak around.

HAHAH! Yeah, I've snuck around when things are hectic at some parks. I've also waved to the guys on the mower, and showed them my finds... and then they recommend other places.

Sometimes it's about using good judgement. It's rare a situation isn't unique, and there's definitely no one-size fits all rule! Sneaking is DEFINITELY a viable strategy.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Contributors to the negative side of MDing...

>The ones that MD on school property during school hours or when after school activities are going on.

>MDing in public sports parks while events are taking place

>Carrying a large shovel anyplace in public/populated areas

>Detecting curb strips and not using common sense, if well kept the homeowner has pride in it...Don't argue with objecting homeowners to the point they call the police or their councilman.

>Digging holes on public beaches and not filling them...sure kids do it, but why make yourself a target for expulsion. We are few, they are many

>Beach detecting when the beaches are packed. Beach goers/tourist are the majority and what the chamber of commerce want ... not you!
.....Most of these are corrected by just using common sense, unfortunately not all MDers posses this. SS

Folks, we have a Winner! And who does stuff like the bad habits listed above? Newbies that watch crap like this..