Why is MD prohibited so much?

[haxor]

I can only come up with the "holes left behind" argument. (somewhat valid, but a poor argument)

Saw one state sight that claimed "the removal of buried items can wreak significant damage to natural resources". I call utter BS

I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

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[Charlie P. (NY)]

You got it in one. Holes and destruction. I've also run into people who believe us going around recovering coins and jewelry is "stealing".

State and Federal parks add that it's a shared resource and no one individual should remove natural or historic items.

And, lastly and lately, the country is so litigious that no one wants the liability of having someone on their property for fear they'll get hurt and sue the property owner.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I can only come up with the "holes left behind" argument. (somewhat valid, but a poor argument)

Saw one state sight that claimed "the removal of buried items can wreak significant damage to natural resources"....

If you were to ask this question to the pencil pushers who ever dreamed up any such "no md'ing" rules, what do you think the answer to the question would be ? Naturally they would say one of the following:

1) "Because of holes". At which point we md'rs mutter under our breath "darned those md'rs that must've left holes". Right ? or

2) "Because of cultural heritage concerns". At which point we md'rs mutter under our breath "darned those archies", right ?

But the MUCH BIGGER question is: What put it on that pencil pusher's desk, to begin with ? I think that often-time, #1 and #2 reasons are just "go to" answers. For example, re.: #2: Do you *really* think an archie was walking through the park one day, saw an md'r years ago, and thought "oh no, he might find something old ! We have to stop this!". I suppose that might have happened, but is that realistic ? I mean, in a given city of 200,000 people , there might be 1 "purist" archie. Or in a given state park's staff of 10,000, there might be 1 purist archie. So do you really think he stumbled one day onto an md'r and thought "oh me oh my, we must regulate this!" ?

And regarding #1: I'm not so convinced that there was always necessarily a case of "holes" that brought about rules. Instead, I think a lot (most) such cases where that's given as the answer, is merely because that's the automatic connotation that a man with a detector has. It doesn't necessarily mean that there had ever been a CASE of holes/scars. So when they say "no because of holes", don't be so quick to assume there was ever cases of that.

Therefore the much bigger question is: What put the "pressing issue" on the plate of pencil pushers to decide "let's write a rule" ? SOMETHING pushed it "front and center" to cross someone's desk, way-back-when, to decide "do we or don't we allow this?".

And in my opinion, the method by which that happened, is that well-meaning sincere people, way-back-when, have gone in and asked "can I metal detect?". Or "Is md'ing allowed?". And so forth. And THEN the matter gets passed back and forth between various desk-jockeys, till eventually the "easy answer" is given. Presto, problem solved.

Thus it's we md'rs that can sometimes be our own worst enemy.

 

[ivan salis]

the grubbermint views everything lost in the ground as "belonging to the "people" --with the grubbermint being the "people"...not we the actual "people"( you and I) ,,,,somethings that can be dug up in addition to being "historically cool" ..can have actual fiscal value (they can be sold for "real money" ) so the griubbermint doesn't want you to get any easy money that they don't get a cut off of -- because when you work the grubbermint "taxes" your money made by it via various taxes deducted from your paycheck --income tax , SS tax , Medicare / Medicaid tax , ect ,ect...

 

[RustyGold]

I also believe it's more like what Tom was alluding to. Some well meaning detectorist was too shy about going ahead and wanted permission.
Remember when we were kids and asked our Mom if you could do anything a bit unusual? The answer was pretty much "No"!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

the grubbermint views everything lost in the ground as "belonging to the "people" -......

Yes. In addition to the "go to" reasons of holes and cultural heritage, yours is a 3rd "go to" reason they can cite. It comes in the forms of "remove", "harvest", and "take" type clauses. So if someone, way-back-when, were tasked with "deciding if md'ing is allowed" (because well-meaning md'rs have gone in asking permission), Yes: that has sometimes been the rationale used.. Ie.: that we "remove" and "take" things.

But again, the bigger issue is: What put that on-their-plate of decisions, in the first place ? To have ever had to "run it through their filters" to deduce "aha! they would be "taking" things" (and , gasp, maybe even valuable things!)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Post script to Haxor: Actually the very question itself: "Why is MD prohibited so much?", is actually a falsely premised question. It implicitly says that md'ing IS "prohibited so much". Since when is that a given ? There's TONS of public places you can md at w/o issue. I think it just SEEMS to some people that "oh no, there's rules all over", because of reading isolated stories.

Sort of like reading of shark attacks. EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE SUPER RARE (and thousands swim daily without incident), yet when you read one shark attack story, guess what you're afraid of ? Guess what you think is "imminent if you swim" ?

So too is it with md'ing: We tend to read some story of a new city with a rule, or someone who got hassled, etc.... And in our minds we expand that to "rules and everyone hates us" mentality.

For example, even this post itself (with the title, etc...) will cause some folks to worry, think of "rules", fear a booting now, etc.... EVEN if they can't think of a single city our county around them with anything so-specific as an actual rule. Why? Because they read it on the internet. Doh!

 

[Bquamb]

Ohhhhhh Canada. Don't really have that problem here, but it all comes down to those "Bad Apples" That ruin it for the rest of us. Those that don't have $0.02, a conscious mind or common sense.

Sucks.

 

[cudamark]

I agree with Tom in that most areas are open to detecting and that the prohibitions are a bit overblown. Naturally, if an area is off-limits, don't detect there or you will have a problem. Occasionally, you'll run across someone who thinks they're in charge and who wants to prove it by throwing their weight around. Go at off hours to avoid those knuckleheads. I've been detecting for over 45 years now and can count on my hands how many times I've been booted from a site, and still have fingers left over. I've never been arrested or ticketed. If told to leave, do so, and worry about whether you were in the right or not for another day. Just do your own research first to determine if an area is open or closed to detecting or if there are restrictions on how you go about it. Rules are posted either online or at the governing bodies headquarters. Just don't go asking the clerks their opinion as they usually don't know the law any better than you do.

 

[TheRingFinder]

We have a park system called "3 Rivers" : They maintain quite a few beaches in the Minneapolis area. They, for some reason stopped all metal detecting on the beaches. A few detectorists went to a meeting with 3 rivers officials. The officials said they didn't want people digging up the sand. The detectorists came back with "what about kids digging sandcastles".

The officials stumbled and hymned and hawed. Had no answer, but things still did not change.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ring-finder: Curious if you know the evolution of the 3 River's beaches md'ing ban ? I mean, if you ask them (like it appears some md'rs did), they come up with "digging" as their "go-to" reason. But since OBVIOUSLY that is a silly notion for beaches, afterall, then what was the real reason for them all-of-the-sudden decide they needed to make a rule ?

Perhaps some 3 Rivers official was out there on the beach one day, saw an md'r, and thought "their holes are worse than sand-castle holes?" (not likely, eh ?)

 

[basque-man]

See it more and more here in CA with the drought going on. Old towns which were lost under the water are now coming to light and certainly why not metal detect these areas?? But if they are on State Property or belong to the National Parks Service they are all off limits. It's funny cause these little treasures lost years ago would have most likely never been found till now. If these government agencies were in such a fuss to have them, why are they not out there conducting some type of dig? I know we have a few people that roll through an area like a mack truck, but for the many others who do detect, we take our more trash than what was left. I certainly don't have the answers. Someone else feels they have to tell us what we can and can't do..............We can only hope someday it changes!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... why are they not out there conducting some type of dig?....

basque-man, your question has been posed many times before: Ie.:

a) "the items will just rust to eternity, so why does any of them care ?" And

b) "if they 'care' so much, why aren't they out there retrieving and displaying them for public good then?"

However, the purist archie mindset has a pat answer for that: Even though there admittedly is not likely to be an archie pit dug "right there where you just found that barber dime", for the next 500 yrs, yet HOW DO YOU KNOW that some archie might not dig a pit there 1000, or 2000 yrs. from now ? And hence you would have "robbed them of knowing about their past".

I know that sounds silly, but they would then give an example of something like the wonderful things we learn about ancient egyptian life, by digging NOT ONLY AT THE PYRAMIDS themselves, but also the worker villages miles downstream Seemingly innocuous spots, that ..... 2000 yrs. later, do indeed reveal all sorts of great knowledge about the past in that culture. So in the same way, a buffalo nickel dug from the desert campground, or the merc dug in the school yard MIGHT have been the exact spot where a FUTURE archie decides to dig his pit.

Thus shame on you for robbing future generations of knowing/learning about their past

 

[toolmanbutch]

I am a new forum member. I am fairly new to this hobby. Where can I get more info on the dos and dont's of this hobby? Reading this thread has me a little nervous.
toolmanbutch

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... I am fairly new to this hobby..... Reading this thread has me a little nervous.....

This is exact proof positive of the "self-fulfilling-vicious-loop" I alluded to in post #7 of this thread.

toolmanbutch: Just avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments. And if you're still worried/skittish of some particular location/entity, you can look up said-entity's rules on their website, or wherever they've got their muni-code, charter, etc..... If you see nothing that says "no md'ing", then there's your answer.

There is no compendium list of every single city and county in the USA (there's just too many cities and counties for anyone to have undertaken such an endeavour). However, every city and county's parks would have their muni-codes up for public viewing somewhere, so you can look it up for yourself if you are skittish.

As for state and federal, it depends on what type state, and what type fed. land you are asking about. So you'd have to have a specific site in mind, and then make a thread asking if anyone knows about that particular type land. Do this (asking fellow hobbyists) rather than calling the entity themselves. Lest your question be mis-understood, and some pencil-jockey give you an arbitrary "no", when no such rule really exists.

 

[basque-man]

basque-man, your question has been posed many times before: Ie.:

a) "the items will just rust to eternity, so why does any of them care ?" And

b) "if they 'care' so much, why aren't they out there retrieving and displaying them for public good then?"

However, the purist archie mindset has a pat answer for that: Even though there admittedly is not likely to be an archie pit dug "right there where you just found that barber dime", for the next 500 yrs, yet HOW DO YOU KNOW that some archie might not dig a pit there 1000, or 2000 yrs. from now ? And hence you would have "robbed them of knowing about their past".

I know that sounds silly, but they would then give an example of something like the wonderful things we learn about ancient egyptian life, by digging NOT ONLY AT THE PYRAMIDS themselves, but also the worker villages miles downstream Seemingly innocuous spots, that ..... 2000 yrs. later, do indeed reveal all sorts of great knowledge about the past in that culture. So in the same way, a buffalo nickel dug from the desert campground, or the merc dug in the school yard MIGHT have been the exact spot where a FUTURE archie decides to dig his pit.

Thus shame on you for robbing future generations of knowing/learning about their past

Well, I have learned from my grandfather as well as my great grandfather where they tended sheep here in N. CA and W. NV. I search these places and now show them to my 16 year old son who I hope some day takes his children to these places.

If some person a 1000 years from digs up my grave; then they might find something I found today!

I think most here respect the rules as we do, and don't dig where we're not supposed to. (At least most of the time) We fill in our holes, don't leave a trace behind that we were there, well maybe my dog does, but oops. We have a great working relationship with our local BLM Ranger who sometimes has ideas where we "might check" out because of the people we are.

We all have that "inner archaeologist" voice inside us. It might be part of the reason we do this as a hobby. It is one I completely enjoy and always will. I just think its a shame sometimes we cannot look today where someone "might" look in a 1000 years........ We have too many rules and regulations in this country; some of which I don't agree with. I'm sure that is strange to here from someone who has enforced these laws for over 25 years but I must admit, I use A LOT of desecration when dealing with the normal, hard working people and even sometimes the strange.

Just my very humble opinion.......

 

[Skippy SH13]

Frankly, I think nearly all bans all come down to one thing... PERCEPTION.

Occasionally, specific events occur, that cause councils to ban all citizens from a specific action to prevent the problems one or two citizens cause (e.g. a local city banned MDing in the 70's when detectors first became available, because some yahoo went through all the schools and left gaping holes... THey banned it for everyone when a kid tripped and broke her ankle... in this case, it was retaliatory banning... about 15 years ago, the ban was lifted due to club involvement in city council meetings.)

The majority of bans, though, are for the PERCEPTION of MDers. I think this is the primary reason..> it's not the excuses they make after the fact... it's the management of perceived problems.

For example, how many times have you been called, or heard MDers called "Creepy?" As a result, many folks 'think' about MDers and immediately have a negative emotional perception. It's logical (I'm not saying it's "right," only logical), that if a person in power wants to "clean up the city/beach/whatever" and make it more enjoyable for all citizens, they work to remove the negative perceptions... Then when confronted by a MDer who is actually a VERY normal person, the hums and haws over why they did it starts showing up. Instead of a "we did it because we think MDers are weird," we hear stupid answers like "to prevent digging of holes in sand." And you KNOW as soon as it comes out of their mouth, they're thinking "oh, crap, that sounded stupid." But they're sure as heck not going to have an authentic conversation about how MDers are viewed as a nuisance to the public.

It's why we need to constantly be educating folks about all the good we do! Show people the trash. Hold up a rusty nail once in a while and comment to yourself, "Sure am glad this isn't going to be in a kids foot!" Contact the city, and offer to look for any rings people lose if they call into lost and found.. Once the conversation starts (they're usually pretty positive at that point), tell them all the trash you pick up. When people ask you in the parks, "What are you doing? Do you work for the city?" Tell them "Nope, I don't get paid for this. I volunteer my time to keep the parks clean, because I enjoy metal detecting as hobby. I don't get all the trash, but I do remove sharp stuff regularly!" (I LOVE the reactions this one gets... Lots of thank yous and "Wow, I appreciate you keeping it clean!")

If MDing has a perception problem, it really is on US (The Metal Detectorists) to change that perception. It's not about what's fair or equal here... People will be people, and we are all ruled, in part, by our emotional responses. Recognizing that and working to change the perception can make a world of difference for folks in the hobby!

Cheers,

Skippy

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....The majority of bans, though, are for the PERCEPTION of MDers....

Skippy, good post. "Perception" is one way to put it. And "connotations" is another. Such that EVEN if you leave absolutely no trace, and EVEN though no one really cares about that buffalo nickel underground, and EVEN though you wont' waltz over beach blankets and kick sand in peoples faces, yet ..... how does the busy-body observer know that ? In the administrator's view of things, they may think "gee do we really want all these yahoos out here making a mess?" (even though you may leave ABSOLUTELY NO MESS).

Thus yes: Actual outcome is most often NOT the reason for bans. It's often only "mental images" "connotations", and "perceptions".

And the best way to STOP those perceptions from coming their minds, is to stay off their radar, such that they think as little about you, as possible. If that means hunting at night, or before 8am, and so forth, so-be-it.

Kind of like nose-picking: not necessarily illegal, but .... sheeesk, don't we ALL sort of of ... uhh... pick discreet times to do it, so as not to offend people ? Same concept for md'ing. If someone might not like it, then for pete's sake, don't air your dirty laundry in front of that particular person.

 

[Skippy SH13]

I like that approach, too, (staying off people's radars). At the same time, though, I don't think staying off radars does much for changing perceptions... only preventing the perception from being considered.

Personally, I LIKE having interactions with folks in the field. I only do city parks, and pretty much on my lunch-time and weekends. There's no early morning hunts for me (I'm usually at work before 6am).

I get some nice invites this way, too, and it seems there's always a plethora of matchbox cars to be found and given away. Sure, I'm certain some folks are a bit weirded out by the guy walking around in the headset, but if you're not at a park doing a LITTLE people watching, you're missing half the fun. I like to be part of the scenery, I guess. I see people at a variety of parks, and have become very friendly with a lot of folks. Recently, I've taken to giving pennies away that are found in the bark. That seems to really make parents far more comfortable. A gaggle of kids is around, and I give basic instructions, and call out "who is next?!" I'm there weekly, so it's become a non-issue with most folks.

Sometimes I think that while we're not hurting the hobby any by hiding in the wee hours of the morning, we're also not helping it. When something is commonplace, it becomes acceptable.

I hope I'm not making things worse for the hobbiests out there (I suppose there's a chance me showing up in broad daylight makes things worse in someone's mind who is far away). I think it totally helps, too, that I hunt often with my son. He'll show up still in his football gear sometimes. LOL When people see a dad and son detecting together, it makes it a LOT less creepy.

Skippy

 

[basque-man]

"For example, how many times have you been called, or heard MDers called "Creepy?""

Now that's funny!!!!