Why were the Peraltas and crew massacred?
- Thread starter nobodie
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sgtfda
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More likely the Pima
Azquester
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So do loser's it's their MO. If Travis was a winner he would've found the Treasure or Gold MIne. All he found were suckers willing to believe his fabricated maps. Eldo is one of Travis's 58 year suckers. Like the rest of us we believed initially in the Stone Maps so he suckered us to. Most of us got over it and discounted the Maps when they made no sense at all. Some still believe they are truly real. Travis as a winner? Hardly...
There's no amount of explanation that'll dig Travis out of the liar's hole he buried himself in. At this point someone would have too show us the money. If Travis had original maps in his possesion he squandered his creds long ago and never proved he was worthy of being a Treasure Finder. IMHO
I didn't know where to post this information, so I thought I'd try here, I hope it's ok.
While researching the Treasure Mountain story, I ran across this information, so I thought I'd pass it on.
This note is from an article about Wilbur Fisk Stone.
TCL - Wilbur Fisk Stone - July 2002
Here is note 14 from the story.
14. For a review of Stone and his efforts researching the Spanish Peraltaland grant, see articles by Josiah M. Ward in The Denver Post, Jan. 9-23, 1921, which may be found in the Dawson Scrapbooks, Vol. 31 (Denver, CO: Colorado Historical Society) at 5-15.
There might be something here you can use, but Ward's articles should be well researched for accuracy.
While researching the Treasure Mountain story, I ran across this information, so I thought I'd pass it on.
This note is from an article about Wilbur Fisk Stone.
TCL - Wilbur Fisk Stone - July 2002
Here is note 14 from the story.
14. For a review of Stone and his efforts researching the Spanish Peraltaland grant, see articles by Josiah M. Ward in The Denver Post, Jan. 9-23, 1921, which may be found in the Dawson Scrapbooks, Vol. 31 (Denver, CO: Colorado Historical Society) at 5-15.
There might be something here you can use, but Ward's articles should be well researched for accuracy.
Hal Croves
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nobodie,
Are are suggesting that the Pima possibly resorted to extortion? If so, could you give one other historical example of them doing?
cactusjumper
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The Pima did not need pay to fight the Apache.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Azquester
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The Pima's were involved in many depredations and extortions along with the Apaches and Seri's. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to see them just north of the Gila as they lived pretty much all along the Gila and Pedro Rivers. Reading known history above I would dare say it was the Pima themselves that killed the Peralta's!
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Azquester
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Here's an interesting document.
Could this be the attacks of the Peralta's we've heard so much about?
Or could it have been the Santa Catarina's confused with the Superstition Massacre?
Could this be the attacks of the Peralta's we've heard so much about?
Or could it have been the Santa Catarina's confused with the Superstition Massacre?
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cactusjumper
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Bill,
"The Pima's were involved in many depredations and extortions along with the Apaches and Seri's. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to see them just north of the Gila as they lived pretty much all along the Gila and Pedro Rivers. Reading known history above I would dare say it was the Pima themselves that killed the Peralta's!"
None of your quotes mentions "extortions" by the Pima. Can you provide a single historical citation for such an instance? Both Spanish and American charges of depredations by Native Americans were often confused as to who the guilty parties were. This is especially true of a number of claims against the Apache.
For the most part, the Pima were known as a "friendly" people.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
"The Pima's were involved in many depredations and extortions along with the Apaches and Seri's. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to see them just north of the Gila as they lived pretty much all along the Gila and Pedro Rivers. Reading known history above I would dare say it was the Pima themselves that killed the Peralta's!"
None of your quotes mentions "extortions" by the Pima. Can you provide a single historical citation for such an instance? Both Spanish and American charges of depredations by Native Americans were often confused as to who the guilty parties were. This is especially true of a number of claims against the Apache.
For the most part, the Pima were known as a "friendly" people.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
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Thats not very complicated Joe, simple survival. Most early tribes were living in a delicate balance between abundance and starvation times. The Peraltas represented an invasion of extra mouths to be fed. Most early tribes were at a semi-constant war / extermination with each other.for territory which represented food. Invaders, extra mouths, were not welcome,
I personally found that out while on the Yucatan project,while game and plant life was fairly easyto find at first, in a little while it outstripped the reproduction rate and we had to constantly move to new teritory. as it took up too much time, somtimes a full day.
I personally found that out while on the Yucatan project,while game and plant life was fairly easyto find at first, in a little while it outstripped the reproduction rate and we had to constantly move to new teritory. as it took up too much time, somtimes a full day.
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Azquester
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Extortion and Kidnapping for monetary or possession gains by the Indians was common place back then. The info below was just some more on the area around the Gila. I'll show you some docs about kidnapping here in a minute, I'll just post these for now. I'm trying to find one that shows evidence of mining north of the Gila. The Pima's had Rebels just like the rest of the tribes.
cactusjumper
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Bill,
I'm well aware of the history of the Pima's and Apache. I thought we were talking about the 1800s. I don't believe there is any historical documentation of the Apache massacring 500 or so Mexicans (Peralta's) in the 1800s. Basically just stories related to treasure hunting and rumors. It's all about someone trying to make a buck.
Kidnapping of white or Mexican children was primarily for bringing them into the different tribes to bolster their population. Future warriors or wives/slaves.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
I'm well aware of the history of the Pima's and Apache. I thought we were talking about the 1800s. I don't believe there is any historical documentation of the Apache massacring 500 or so Mexicans (Peralta's) in the 1800s. Basically just stories related to treasure hunting and rumors. It's all about someone trying to make a buck.
Kidnapping of white or Mexican children was primarily for bringing them into the different tribes to bolster their population. Future warriors or wives/slaves.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Bill,
"An extremely important letter from the Jesuit Father provincial de Oviedo to viceroy and auditor de guerra marques de Altamira in which he presents an analysis of the Indian problems in the north- particularly the Apache incursions and outlines a grand strategy for expansion and founding of a new presidio in the Gila, Colorado River area. Additional comments are made concerning difficulties of military logistics, Apache tactics, etc. And ends with comments on the civilian politics of the provinces and recommends that a visitador be sent to clear up divisions and reorganize the administration. (D. Deeds) (1977)"
__________________________________________________________________
Did you mean Susan M. Deeds in the above quote? Can you cite the publication source?
Thanks,
Joe Ribaudo
"An extremely important letter from the Jesuit Father provincial de Oviedo to viceroy and auditor de guerra marques de Altamira in which he presents an analysis of the Indian problems in the north- particularly the Apache incursions and outlines a grand strategy for expansion and founding of a new presidio in the Gila, Colorado River area. Additional comments are made concerning difficulties of military logistics, Apache tactics, etc. And ends with comments on the civilian politics of the provinces and recommends that a visitador be sent to clear up divisions and reorganize the administration. (D. Deeds) (1977)"
__________________________________________________________________
Did you mean Susan M. Deeds in the above quote? Can you cite the publication source?
Thanks,
Joe Ribaudo
Hal Croves
Silver Member
The potential for doing bad is in all of us I think and individually, some Pima may have behaved so however, the reports that I have read suggest that culturally, on a whole, such behavior would have been atypical. It was no honor to take a life for the Pima. In fact, those who did had to go thru a purification ritual lasting days. Only after completing this ritual were warriors allowed to return home. My understanding is that they were a generous people, to white settlers, the US Army, and to other displace nations (the Maricopas) looking for a place to call home. Unfortunately, they may have also been somewhat naive and overly superstitious.
Still, I would not have wanted to face them in battle.
If you can find a copy and if you are interested: THE PAPAGO INDIANS OF ARIZONA AND THEIR RELATIVES THE PIMA - Ruth Underhill, PH. D
Hal Croves
Silver Member
Brother Bill,
The continual abuses (physical, sexual, emotional) of a greed driven invader hopefully would inspire any people to rebellion and acts of violence.
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