Ye Olde Eagle new pics added
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kuger
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
If it was copper it would be green,also copper is much to soft to make things like this.The buckles and hat pins we find are stamped brass
If it was copper it would be green,also copper is much to soft to make things like this.The buckles and hat pins we find are stamped brass
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
Point taken. However, if you heat copper it gets soft enough to be maleable and then once its worked and cools it is considerably harder. The pics are of it not cleaned and under the crud it is green. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to narrow this down so keep the input coming, I respect all comments and considerations. p.s. you were spot on regarding my other posts Kuger!
Point taken. However, if you heat copper it gets soft enough to be maleable and then once its worked and cools it is considerably harder. The pics are of it not cleaned and under the crud it is green. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to narrow this down so keep the input coming, I respect all comments and considerations. p.s. you were spot on regarding my other posts Kuger!
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kuger
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
Thanks Dan.It appears to be the same material that the stamped buckles and Hardee hat pins we find are made of,which is thin stamped brass(depending on the soil bras does take one a neat green patina,but I beleive there is copper in brass?Tinpan also says the buckles they find in Aussie land are copper....I just cant say I have ever seen one?Doesnt really matter to the ID of your cool piece though
dandan said:
Thanks Dan.It appears to be the same material that the stamped buckles and Hardee hat pins we find are made of,which is thin stamped brass(depending on the soil bras does take one a neat green patina,but I beleive there is copper in brass?Tinpan also says the buckles they find in Aussie land are copper....I just cant say I have ever seen one?Doesnt really matter to the ID of your cool piece though
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Breezie
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
Copper is what put the Bronze age on the map, but as far as in the US is concerned, jewelry (and the likes of) made out of copper was popular in the Southwestern part of the US in the 1850s-1880s because the Native Americans used it for trade. It wasn't until the 1930s/40s/50s that it was popular with women's jewelry in the US, and it really didn't make that big of a hit at that time. Did you find this in the Southwestern part of the US? I agree with Kuger in that it looks like a cloak clasp or some type of decorative clasp made of brass. After you get it cleaned-up, you can always give it the 'sniff test' to see if it is brass. To know the smell, take a brass house key and rub it between your fingers, then sniff your fingers. It has a very distinctive odor. You may have to sand/scrape an area in the back to get down past the crud for the sniff test to work. Nice find, Breezie
Copper is what put the Bronze age on the map, but as far as in the US is concerned, jewelry (and the likes of) made out of copper was popular in the Southwestern part of the US in the 1850s-1880s because the Native Americans used it for trade. It wasn't until the 1930s/40s/50s that it was popular with women's jewelry in the US, and it really didn't make that big of a hit at that time. Did you find this in the Southwestern part of the US? I agree with Kuger in that it looks like a cloak clasp or some type of decorative clasp made of brass. After you get it cleaned-up, you can always give it the 'sniff test' to see if it is brass. To know the smell, take a brass house key and rub it between your fingers, then sniff your fingers. It has a very distinctive odor. You may have to sand/scrape an area in the back to get down past the crud for the sniff test to work. Nice find, Breezie
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kuger
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
Again,and not to argue,its just that this copper/brass thing has come up on here before,and my most favorite relic is made from stamped brass.
If you look in either Kerksis' or Odonnells book,or Hanover brass' site you will note that there are none of these type of thin pieces made from copper,either cast brass or stamped brass.Just food for thought!!!!
Again,and not to argue,its just that this copper/brass thing has come up on here before,and my most favorite relic is made from stamped brass.
If you look in either Kerksis' or Odonnells book,or Hanover brass' site you will note that there are none of these type of thin pieces made from copper,either cast brass or stamped brass.Just food for thought!!!!
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Montana Jim
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
I'll leave my opinions about the colonial site and the material alone, and simply say, the American eagle motif has been popular for hundreds of years on almost anything made.
Personaly, I think it's a non-military piece, and judging from it's size, part of a powder flask.
Or, not.
I'll leave my opinions about the colonial site and the material alone, and simply say, the American eagle motif has been popular for hundreds of years on almost anything made.
Personaly, I think it's a non-military piece, and judging from it's size, part of a powder flask.
Or, not.
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CC Hunter
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
The complex machinery required for mass producing rolled copper and brass, as well as the intricate stamping dies, were not readily available prior to the Industrial Revolution. The Colonial Period technically denotes the time prior the the establishment of our independent country, although many historians accept a transitional carryover into the 1820's as being "Colonial Period".
This particular stamped eagle piece is quite definitely early to mid-19th century (post Industrial Revolution). My impression is that it is either part of a patriotic style powder flask (although I've never seen this exact pattern), or more likely a shako hat device. I'm rather certain that this is NOT a cloak fastener, as it is inconsistent with the style pattern for those devices. Cloak fasteners are typically stamped from heavier material, are smaller in total size, and nearly all have the distinctive large hook and small loops attached to the back. On this particular piece, no evidence in either discoloration, nor traces of lead solder are visible anywhere on the reverse side. The shako hat was very popular with both militia and regular troops in the time period between the War of 1812 and the American Civil War. A recommendation might be suggested for a search through the excellent reference work: American Military Headgear Insignia by J. Duncan Campbell and Michael J. O’Donnell.
CC Hunter
The complex machinery required for mass producing rolled copper and brass, as well as the intricate stamping dies, were not readily available prior to the Industrial Revolution. The Colonial Period technically denotes the time prior the the establishment of our independent country, although many historians accept a transitional carryover into the 1820's as being "Colonial Period".
This particular stamped eagle piece is quite definitely early to mid-19th century (post Industrial Revolution). My impression is that it is either part of a patriotic style powder flask (although I've never seen this exact pattern), or more likely a shako hat device. I'm rather certain that this is NOT a cloak fastener, as it is inconsistent with the style pattern for those devices. Cloak fasteners are typically stamped from heavier material, are smaller in total size, and nearly all have the distinctive large hook and small loops attached to the back. On this particular piece, no evidence in either discoloration, nor traces of lead solder are visible anywhere on the reverse side. The shako hat was very popular with both militia and regular troops in the time period between the War of 1812 and the American Civil War. A recommendation might be suggested for a search through the excellent reference work: American Military Headgear Insignia by J. Duncan Campbell and Michael J. O’Donnell.
CC Hunter
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BuckleBoy
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
I agree with the others. It is most certainly either a cloak clasp or powder flask panel. For a second I thought it might be part of the brass "skin" from a breastplate, but that is not what it is.
Best Wishes,
Buckles
I agree with the others. It is most certainly either a cloak clasp or powder flask panel. For a second I thought it might be part of the brass "skin" from a breastplate, but that is not what it is.
Best Wishes,
Buckles
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CC Hunter
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
That is a fair thought there. However, the "skins" from 19th century stamped brass accoutrement plates, that were lead/solder filled, will almost always show signs of some remaining solder stains after the lead is removed. Personally, I've dug a few "skins" and seen countless other excavated examples. A study of the eagle design, on the round cross-belt plates affixed to the belt on the cartridge box for mid-19th century U.S. military equipment, exhibits the eagle facing the opposite direction, compared with the example in question that we see posted here. Even though there are many variations of the eagle cross-belt plate (commonly called breastplates), which may be attributed to the many different manufacturers that were contracted to supply the military, the basic design regulations and position of the eagle were fairly consistent.
I will do a reference check in the "encyclopedia of powder flasks"; Ray Riling's The Powder Flask Book, for a similar match to this pattern. My hunch though is still leaning towards a shako hat device. I've dug many of the cloak fasteners from 1830's-1850's sites, and have never seen one that is of a style, construction, and size, that matches the example that is posted here.
CC Hunter
That is a fair thought there. However, the "skins" from 19th century stamped brass accoutrement plates, that were lead/solder filled, will almost always show signs of some remaining solder stains after the lead is removed. Personally, I've dug a few "skins" and seen countless other excavated examples. A study of the eagle design, on the round cross-belt plates affixed to the belt on the cartridge box for mid-19th century U.S. military equipment, exhibits the eagle facing the opposite direction, compared with the example in question that we see posted here. Even though there are many variations of the eagle cross-belt plate (commonly called breastplates), which may be attributed to the many different manufacturers that were contracted to supply the military, the basic design regulations and position of the eagle were fairly consistent.
I will do a reference check in the "encyclopedia of powder flasks"; Ray Riling's The Powder Flask Book, for a similar match to this pattern. My hunch though is still leaning towards a shako hat device. I've dug many of the cloak fasteners from 1830's-1850's sites, and have never seen one that is of a style, construction, and size, that matches the example that is posted here.
CC Hunter
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Montana Jim
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
I agree it may be a shako hat plate piece...
I've been searching for a match with no luck. Many varieties out there, but none yet with the rope like wing edge and downturned wing tip.
I agree it may be a shako hat plate piece...
I've been searching for a match with no luck. Many varieties out there, but none yet with the rope like wing edge and downturned wing tip.
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BuckleBoy
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
A shako plume holder eh? That is a possibility. I'll do some searching too.
Best Wishes,
Buck
A shako plume holder eh? That is a possibility. I'll do some searching too.
Best Wishes,
Buck
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CC Hunter
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
Hey Buckles,
You're on the right road, just the wrong lane.
The shako style hat has a very large front surface area that allows for some rather sizeable and ornate decorations. Now that fancy little plume holder at the top of the shako is entirely different animal, and hardly resembles what we are studying here.
CC Hunter
Hey Buckles,
You're on the right road, just the wrong lane.
The shako style hat has a very large front surface area that allows for some rather sizeable and ornate decorations. Now that fancy little plume holder at the top of the shako is entirely different animal, and hardly resembles what we are studying here.
CC Hunter
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CC Hunter
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Re: Ye Olde Eagle
A search through The Powder Flask Book , has in fact brought to light a few possible eagle style flasks with a similar design motif. Examples 758, 759, 760, 761, 763, 767, 771, 776, and 789 on Pages 340 and 341, all feature an eagle with the head and wing in a very similar position and location. I've not located an exact match, but these are closer than anything I've seen thus far.
Here's a photo of a similar one that I located online
A search through The Powder Flask Book , has in fact brought to light a few possible eagle style flasks with a similar design motif. Examples 758, 759, 760, 761, 763, 767, 771, 776, and 789 on Pages 340 and 341, all feature an eagle with the head and wing in a very similar position and location. I've not located an exact match, but these are closer than anything I've seen thus far.
Here's a photo of a similar one that I located online
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