Your thoughts on finding sealed caves

kronos416 · Feb 27, 2009

What are some of your thoughts or opinions on finding sealed caves. Ground penetrating radar? Infared imagery to locate hot and cold spots where the colder spots could be covered cave entrances? Any other techniques theories you may have?

corklabus · Feb 27, 2009

Interesting question, but being unfamiliar with the techniques you mentioned, it made me wonder........How would such a thing be done without modern technology? The only answer I could dream up to that would be that IF you had some sort of idea where one could be, you might be able to observe whatever wildlife was there and see if by chance they had found an access and were using it some way. Particularly bats, rats, snakes, and maybe birds. Some sort of air flow variance might be detectable by using smoke.
Otherwise some sort of technology would certainly be necessary, but I have my doubts about the heat sensors reliability because of the depth of cover being unknown.
I know that coal mining has refined some sort of radar to detect open underground pockets and old mining shafts. With those being of a hollow nature, I think that would be the most reliable way of detecting a hidden cave, but then the process isn't always foolproof for the miners either.

Charlie P. (NY) · Feb 27, 2009

If the cave enterance is sealed would it have cold air eminating?

If small openings in a mostly sealed cave then spend a lot of time at dusk looking for where the bats might be emerging.

You're in Ohio, so look after a very light snowfall. Cold air in the summer, but warmer air in the winter (no snow). Supposedly Howe Caverns was discovered because the cows like to hang around one small depression in the summer - where the cool air escaped.

Search the right type or rocks. Won't be many caves in shale or granite. Here are some tips:

http://cavingintro.net/newcaves.html

Mojave · Feb 27, 2009

The old White's TM-808 had a cave locator feature, which would basically detect large "open spaces" within the ground, mountain, etc.

Sunn also made one.

I have used thermal photography a few times, but with that, the conditions have to be right. Little "fissures" or vents in cave systems can either pull in air, or release air. Generally, air flows up in the winter time, and mostly flows down in the summer. This is because the air temp inside caves is pretty steady, at around mid 40's or so. If the temp outside is warm (in summer), the cool air inside a cave will condense, and "suck in" the outside air from the top-side, releasing it toward the bottom somewhere. If the outside temp is colder, the warmer air is sucked in at the bottom, heats up a little, and flows upward, out through vents toward the top....

If the temp is around the same, you won't see much happening.

So, you kind of have to keep that in mind, but you can take a picture of an entire mountain face, and see some of these things happening, locating possible cave systems.

I've also used thermal guns (I use two Raytek models all the time). This works pretty good if you have an idea about general locations. It just takes awhile, and you have to be pretty close (within 20 feet or so), and the infrared dot is pretty small. But, they are very accurate.

CWnut · Feb 27, 2009

I've seen this discussed before and some of the things mentioned were brought out in previous replies to your question.

Some other thoughts:

frost not forming/staying on a particular area

long range temperature sensing equipment

Kellyco (a Sponsor of this web site) actually sell some devices for just the purpose you have stated

just rambling but hope it helps......

deepskyal · Feb 28, 2009

There was a time I may have thought about exploring caves...but a sealed cave?

Why was it sealed and when?

I've come across 2, accidentally, over the years.

One had an iron door over the entrance...maybe a steel door....but they were making sure nobody entered it...EVER.

The second entrance...a mine entrance...was bricked over...but animals had tunneled into a corner and you could crawl into it if you were crazy enough.

The cave with the iron door was sealed by the game commission. That was their way of eliminating places for bears to sleep. They were trying to force them out of the area. They were also dynamiting caves. This was done in the Allegheny Plateau region around Jennerstown,Pa.

The mine entrance was bricked over because of safety. You can see a support column leaning at a really bad angle where the roof is collapsing. None but the most experienced should ever go in there...and even then they should think twice about it.

If you know or suspect a closed entrance.....find out why it was sealed in the first place.

Al