1788 counterfeit NJ copper

[Greylock]

I have found a few nj coppers but this is my first nj counterfeit so I'm pretty excited about that. Rang at a nice mid tone and in the mid 60's on the at pro. wasnt expecting a coin at all but when it came up and I seem the shield I knew it had to be a fake. Also found a few buttons as some iron but the iron goes right into some apple cider vinegar when I get home.

 

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[justdugcrazy]

How can you tell its counterfeit? I never find anything older then 1886 unless I have and couldn't I.D. just wondering maybe you could explain

 

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[Don in SJ]

Confirmed as a M.23-R, but not 100% sure if it is genuine or a cast counterfeit. Have you run your detector over it since you cleaned it and out of the ground? Compare with one of your other NJ coppers. Also if you get a chance to weigh it in grains or grams that would be nice info perhaps to help determine. I still lean to it being genuine...

 

[Erik in NJ]

Fantastic recovery and regardless if it real or counterfeit a wonderful find brother--congrats on yet another one!

 

[Bubba65]

Hey Greylock Congrats on another great NJ Copper

Bubba65

 

[Bramblefind]

You might want to contact John Lorenzo and request an XRF test of the coin. I had a Connecticut I suspected was a cast counterfeit and sent it to him for confirmation. Sometimes he will give an opinion just from the photos.

I know another member of this site sent a number of coins to him for analysis and was very pleased with the process.

He is located in New Jersey so he might have more of an interest in this coin if he thinks it might be a counterfeit.

His email address is in this article-

X-RAY FLUORESCENCE SPECTROSCOPY FOR DETERMINING COIN COMPOSITION

 

[Greylock]

It's lower now then when in was in the ground I was getting 65 in the woods. The first pic is my maris 38z and it was a high tone 82 like most large cents in my area and the second of this one. Mid tone 61. Sorry about the pics just took them quick inside.

 

[Evolution]

Congrats on the NJ copper Greylock. The only NJ I ever dug rang up as a solid 76 in the ground and was an 80 after it came up. 61 does seem a bit low, strange.

 

[Don in SJ]

I wish I knew how to equate your numbers, but I am a Explorer SE user and that reads both a Ferrous number and a Conductive number and out of the 24 NJ coppers I have only one reads a noticeable difference lower than the others but it is a genuine copper. The trouble I have in it being a counterfeit is that I have seen none so far in my survey and that is with identifialbe over 350 coins, over 530 total and no counterfeits reported.
Most counterfeits in the late 1780s-1790s were struck from counterfeit dies, not cast and they were same copper quality, just not as much, thus the lower weight, but a cast coin can weigh less, or within reasonable legal weight or even more than it should. Ground conditions can make it look cast, so again, tough call. I think if it is counterfeit it would go from being an average scarce coin to one with a bit more desireabity. I know I would make special note of that in my article.

Look at the edge carefully and see if you can see perhaps a file mark or castng port. Get it weighed and diameter measured grains/mm. I think it may have to be in hand to determine, perhaps consider contacting John Lorenzo, but I would wait a bit. We have a few others who might chime in yet that may see this post...

Bramblefind, was your CT cast or not, also do you know if 23-R were perhaps struck over top of other colonials, eg: over a CT or other ?

 

[Bramblefind]

Hi Don - Here is the thread for my Connecticut. Photos are there too.

John Lorenzo was convinced my coin was a cast bronze - though some other very prominent colonial coin collectors remain on the fence about it.

I'm sorry I don't know very much about New Jerseys - you are my "go to" person for those

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...als-counterfeit-maybe-connecticut-copper.html

 

[Greylock]

It weights 6 grams and its 27mm. Ill double check the weight tm. Maybe I can bring it to hogge and he can take a better look.

 

[hogge]

6 grams is definitely on the low side. It should also measure 29mm. The weight, of this particular variety, was in the 9-11 gram range. This makes it 1/3-1/2 less than it should be. Would definitely like to see it in the metal Tom. I'll be working at my moms, which is just down the street from my house. Bring your detector and I'll take you to a spot in Hinsdale this afternoon if you want! Itching to get out myself. You have my cell CALL ME! Hogge

 

[doninbrewster]

Just so you know, here's a photo of a 23 1/2 - R from an auction I was at years ago. I would doubt the coin is counterfeit. As far as the weight, there can be big differences in weight in colonials. I have 2 NJ M.17-b's, one weighs 68.7 grains and the other weighs 173.4 grains making them one of the lightest and heaviest NJ's and they are the same variety.

 

[hogge]

I guess that eliminates it being a 23 1/2. Obverse totally different. Nice pics Doninb.

 

[Don in SJ]

With that weight it certaintly looks way underweight, hopefully Hogge will reweigh it or at least by his visual holding it will be able to agree it is lightweight. I was just told there are cast NJ coppers known, Maris 48-g for example has cast specimens. Not sure if any M.23-R varieties are known to be cast or not. The lightest of any of my NJ coppers is 113 grains(Maris 34-J), if yours is in fact 6 grams, that would be closer to 92 grains. Most of the NJ coppers I have are in the 140s to 150s grain range. Hoping to gather more information before end of day.

 

[Don in SJ]

Just so you know, here's a photo of a 23 1/2 - R from an auction I was at years ago. I would doubt the coin is counterfeit. As far as the weight, there can be big differences in weight in colonials. I have 2 NJ M.17-b's, one weighs 68.7 grains and the other weighs 173.4 grains making them one of the lightest and heaviest NJ's and they are the same variety.

View attachment 843406

Don, nice to know of such a weight difference in the same variety, I am assuming you are saying your lightweight one is not a counterfeit, whether cast or not?
Don

 

[Iron Patch]

Said it before, and can always prove it anytime I want to, but the numbers on a detector will not tell the story. I have a coin that I thought had to be counterfeit because it was dark in color and rings in like a small tombac button. The conductive number should be a 28 on this particular coin, and it rings in at 8! I finally got curious enough to do a scratch test and low and behold the thing is copper and a genuine coin. Have never seen another ring in so low, but don't have to because that's enough proof you can't say a coin is counterfeit just because it rings in a bit lower.

A tap test would tell you more. Balance the coin on your thumb and grab another coin which you know is copper. You then strike down on the edge and it should ring like a bell. If it clunks, it's probably cast.

 

[Don In South Jersey]

Sweet Copper, good luck in the outcome...

 

[Greylock]

Said it before, and can always prove it anytime I want to, but the numbers on a detector will not tell the story. I have a coin that I thought had to be counterfeit because it was dark in color and rings in like a small tombac button. The conductive number should be a 28 on this particular coin, and it rings in at 8! I finally got curious enough to do a scratch test and low and behold the thing is copper and a genuine coin. Have never seen another ring in so low, but don't have to because that's enough proof you can't say a coin is counterfeit just because it rings in a bit lower.

A tap test would tell you more. Balance the coin on your thumb and grab another coin which you know is copper. You then strike down on the edge and it should ring like a bell. If it clunks, it's probably cast.

I wasn't so worried about the numbers as much as the tone but I know what you're saying. You just never know. No new information on the coin yet but ill keep everyone updated.

Thanks everyone for the help an comments

 

[Jeff H]

I love finding counterfeits ! Congrats !

 

[BuckleBoy]

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