10th anniversary of the Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural

[Alexandre]

If you're around Brussels, a beer is on me..



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HFdR4_Tu8

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/cultur...al-heritage/2001-convention/10th-anniversary/

 

[LM]

Will there be anyone there to present a different perspective?

 

[capt dom]

They actually are heating up the tar and plucking the chickens for the feathers
for anyone who may show up with an opposing view!

But is somebody wants to send me a ticket.... I'm willing to take them on...
and attempt to represent an articulate opposing view from the private sector.
Although it is cold in Belgium this time of year, if they meet me at the
plane, the tar & feathers will keep me warm.

Just make sure it is round trip!

P.S. The first thing I would put forth is that their video promoting the conference
is a sham! Instead of articulated remains most of our shipwreck sites look like
these photos below!

The last photo is what they would think about our position!

 

[Alexandre]

I am actually going there and, together with my Spanish archaeological co-director, will be telling them how we are on the trail of a treasure carrying Spanish ship...

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/cultur...ion/10th-anniversary/commercial-exploitation/

The impact and extent of looting and commercial interventions - the Portuguese experience and the planned Portuguese / Spanish collaboration on the Nuestra Señora del Rosario

Alexandre Monteiro, Instituto de Arqueologia e Paleociências of the Universidade Nova de Lisboa, Portugal and Veronica Walker Vadillo, Oxford's School of Archaeology, Spain/UK

In May 2007, the largest and most valuable shipwreck treasure in history - a seventeen-ton haul of 500 thousand gold and silver coins, copper and tin ingots, and other commercially valuable objects - was raised by the US Company Odyssey Marine Exploration from the bottom of the sea of the Portuguese Contiguous Zone. The cargo was later found out to have been recovered from the wreck site of the Spanish frigate Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, sunk by the British in 1804.

The Black Swan case, as this affair became known in the media, is a good example of how a thin slice of Humankind’s maritime history, no larger than 300 years, is targeted by commercial companies - with Iberian ships being the main targets for plunder and destruction. As such, the decades-old archaeological adage that states that “we now know more about Roman shipbuilding than we do about the ships of Discoveries” still rings true.
In an age where public perception is everything, the lack of an appropriate and coordinated management plan of the Iberian underwater cultural heritage sunk in Portugal and Spain coastline, hinders nautical archaeologists efforts for archaeological research, conservation and dissemination of knowledge. As such, the authors will bring insight into the formulation of an Iberian co-directed project that aims, amidst other scientific objectives, for the first archaeologically controlled survey of a treasure ship – in this case, a Spanish nao lost in Portuguese waters.

 

[VOC]

Alexandre, you need to watch out talking at these events, as you will just end up looking like all the other UNESCO following Cultural Resource Managers (formally known as Underwater Archaeologist)

 

[old man]

I am actually going there and, together with my Spanish archaeological co-director, will be telling them how we are on the trail of a treasure carrying Spanish ship...

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/cultur...ion/10th-anniversary/commercial-exploitation/

The impact and extent of looting and commercial interventions - the Portuguese experience and the planned Portuguese / Spanish collaboration on the Nuestra Señora del Rosario

Alexandre Monteiro, Instituto de Arqueologia e Paleociências of the Universidade Nova de Lisboa, Portugal and Veronica Walker Vadillo, Oxford's School of Archaeology, Spain/UK

In May 2007, the largest and most valuable shipwreck treasure in history - a seventeen-ton haul of 500 thousand gold and silver coins, copper and tin ingots, and other commercially valuable objects - was raised by the US Company Odyssey Marine Exploration from the bottom of the sea of the Portuguese Contiguous Zone. The cargo was later found out to have been recovered from the wreck site of the Spanish frigate Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, sunk by the British in 1804.

The Black Swan case, as this affair became known in the media, is a good example of how a thin slice of Humankind’s maritime history, no larger than 300 years, is targeted by commercial companies - with Iberian ships being the main targets for plunder and destruction. As such, the decades-old archaeological adage that states that “we now know more about Roman shipbuilding than we do about the ships of Discoveries” still rings true.
In an age where public perception is everything, the lack of an appropriate and coordinated management plan of the Iberian underwater cultural heritage sunk in Portugal and Spain coastline, hinders nautical archaeologists efforts for archaeological research, conservation and dissemination of knowledge. As such, the authors will bring insight into the formulation of an Iberian co-directed project that aims, amidst other scientific objectives, for the first archaeologically controlled survey of a treasure ship – in this case, a Spanish nao lost in Portuguese waters.

JUST WHAT THE TAX PAYERS OF THE WORLD NEED IN THIS ECONOMY. Tax payers money going to fund more projects for Governments at Tax Payers Expense.

 

[trinidad]

It sounds strange that for talking about the effects of fishing and trawling there is a representative of the industry (Philip MacMullen, Sea Fish Industry Authority, UK), but to talk about commercial exploitation, there´s nobody from the "dark side". As a proverb says in Spain: "no more deaf as those who will not listen".

 

[old man]

Below is a quote from who I think is a very WISE MAN. I for one believe they are words that we should all live by:
The author goes on to say that we should also share these riches with the poor people of the Country that the wrecks are found in, like building hosptals, schools and other Humanitarian projects. What's wrong with giving something back, if you hit it BIG
I also think he's dead on when he says. " Thosands or millions of IDENTICAL objects CAN NOT be considered Economical-Cultural Patrimony." And if you need to ask ? No I don't agree with UNESCO !!!

" We should distinguish between these two concepts... economic and curtural. Several million 8 reales on board a galleon, let's say a flag ship of a fleet, along with thousands of silver bars, all of them identical, CAN NOT be considered as economical-cultural patrimony. We should not fool ourselves or anybody else for that matter. The fraud has been well orchestrated: let us obtain the good will of the archaeologists through dogma by declaring to the public that everything more then a hundred years of age is untouchable. Now the only missing element is that of law: the laws necessary to make it possible to leave all this wealth on the bottom without any logical reason for doing so. But, this sea of ours grows more morose and corrosive with each passing day, tearing down the ships within her fold. Nevertheless it makes no difference for precious metals: they will stay there waiting for futrue generations. Be aware that the collective cargoes of the ships listed individually in this book could return between 4,000 and 5,000 euros in cash money. "

 

[Alexandre]

Below is a quote from who I think is a very WISE MAN. I
I also think he's dead on when he says. " Thosands or millions of IDENTICAL objects CAN NOT be considered Economical-Cultural Patrimony." And if you need to ask ? No I don't agree with UNESCO !!!

Who is the wise guy, old man?

 

[old man]

Below is a quote from who I think is a very WISE MAN. I
I also think he's dead on when he says. " Thosands or millions of IDENTICAL objects CAN NOT be considered Economical-Cultural Patrimony." And if you need to ask ? No I don't agree with UNESCO !!!

Who is the wise guy, old man?

Alexandre, Please don't be condescending toward the WISE MAN that I quoted from his book. " Galleons and Sunken Treasure."
His name is Claudio Bonifacio !!! I for one happen to agree with him. Unlike people at YOUR Conference, I happen to think that it would be a better world if we could all work together and not be like most of the prima donna's at your conference. Why don't you take the first step and offer a proposal at your conference to work together ? Instead of all this in-fighting ?

 

[capt dom]

The rats are still guarding the cheese!

It still really funny how these stiffs refer to one of the most inhumane
periods of colonial expansion as "cultural heritage".....\

The may think their shi_ doesn't stink but I am sure
there will be s serious Oder at this get-to-gather...

 

[Alexandre]

Old man, I do agree with you that Claudio is a very wise researcher. I just dont follow his opinions on Cultural Management, that's all.

I do not have any beef with working with anyone else - as long as no artifacts are sold and archaeology is done according to current best practice.

 

[VOC]

Hi Alexandre

Question for you:

What Option do you prefer most :

1. Leave a wreck to be destroyed by either natural forces, pillaging, fishing etc. or left underwater with no knowledge at all about the wrecks contents.

Or

2. Record, recover, conserve, publish and display all of a wrecks contents, but then sell some of the identical items to the public (that actually own our heritage) to pay for the recovery and conservation of all the items ?

Any other options such as governments paying to excavate and conserve thousands of wrecks is not, has not, and will never be an option that will ever happen.

 

[Alexandre]

Option 3, VOC.. Record, recover, conserve, publish and display all of a wrecks contents, without selling items to the public.

If you dont think it is possible, just look at what INA has been doing for decades - all with private support:

http://inadiscover.com/about/vision_and_mission/

 

[Darren in NC]

I don't have a problem with option 3. To each his own. What I have a problem with is when one group with a particular view forces me to accept their view and no other option. After hundreds of years of salvage law, we can practice better archaeology AND return lost commodities to the market. I am now expected to adopt only one view which highly discourages more archaeology than would otherwise take place - effectively robbing mankind of knowledge of maritime history due to that one view.

 

[Alexandre]

Darren, slavers said the same thing about slavery...

Anyhow, no one is preventing you from doing archaeology: if you're going for option 3, then you're good. And, as you said, you have no problem with it...

I don't have a problem with option 3. To each his own. What I have a problem with is when one group with a particular view forces me to accept their view and no other option. After hundreds of years of salvage law, we can practice better archaeology AND return lost commodities to the market. I am now expected to adopt only one view which highly discourages more archaeology than would otherwise take place - effectively robbing mankind of knowledge of maritime history due to that one view.

 

[Darren in NC]

If you desire to reason with me, at least be reasonable. Compare slavery to salvage? Apples and oranges, Sherlock.

I have no problem with #3 if you found the wreck and that's how you want to approach it. But give me the same freedom to apply a funding approach along with archaeology if I find the wreck.

To be clear, I do not endorse a "smash and grab" approach to salvage as an option. Most salvagers do not. Sound archaeology and published works should accompany any project for the benefit of the general public (not to impress my peers who will be the only ones reading in exclusive publications).

 

[Bum Luck]

Option 3, VOC.. Record, recover, conserve, publish and display all of a wrecks contents, without selling items to the public.

I have met both Mel Fisher and Duncan Mathewson multiple times.

That system works. There is little about even a 2 escudo gold piece that is unique, and if an artifact is, like Mel's 77 carat emerald crystal, it is put on display for the public, unlike most archie shows I know about where stuff is kept in boxes out of sight until it 'disappears'.

Fess up, archie; you're an elitist, and the public (taxpayers) are dummies.

 

[Alexandre]

The "trouble" with your approach, Darren, is that the only wrecks you would be putting under the scientific lens of "archaeology" would be the treasure carrying ones.

Who would "fund" the excavation of an 1812 sloop, of an horse ferryboat, of a canal barge? Maybe the "archies"...

Unfortunately, the majority of treasure carrying ships tend to be Iberian ones.

I, as a Portuguese, have a problem with the "salvors" that have wrecked apart countless scores of suspected Portuguese and Spanish ships, worldwide, in search for a fast buck, leaving no knowledge behind (but, usually, a trail of naive investors who also loose their money over a pie in the sky illusion.. I would love to see the numbers on the Fisher's operation, the ratio of invested money versus the revenues they have generated...)

 

[Bum Luck]

Here's some economic data for you, pirated from AU Dreamers post: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,428101.0.html

From: Taffi Fisher Abt, President
Mel Fisher Center, Inc.
RE: “Oceans Act of 2000”

“Economically speaking, there is a domino effect that touches many industries not usually associated with salvage such as cultural tourism (including airlines, hotels, museums, rental car agencies, advertising, etc.) and the literary and film production fields and in turn many smaller industries are also affected. In the last decade, in the Sebastian, Florida area alone, my company has engaged employment for at least 1,500 people in fieldwork, systematically excavating the wrecks more than 8,000 days, recovering in excess of 38,500 artifacts with a monetary value in excess of $12,000,000 .00. From these artifacts, we donated more than 1,500 (most of the best) to the "People of the State of Florida" for their museums and collections valued in excess of $2,500,000. Tallahassee has a wonderful exhibit and the State sends exhibits all over the nation. We also have a traveling exhibition. Tens of thousands of school children and youth groups attend our exhibitions. We have also had hundreds documentaries, books, periodical articles, and even school texts written with this venture as their main subject. This in turn has generated substantial income to the industries of writers, news crews, TV and movie production companies, advertising agencies, moving companies, exhibit designers, etc. Copies of these books and videos such as Discovery Channel, National Geographic, A&E, etc. then get sold in bookstores, video stores, spreading not only economic gain but also knowledge and education of the general public.

In the last 8 years, we have enjoyed an attendance in excess of 105,000 visitors to our Sebastian museum alone (which showed demographically as an unsuccessful area for tourism) since opening in Dec. of 1992. More than $500,000.00 in attendance was generated back into commerce for expenses, employing another 80 people. Our museum/gift store has generated sales in excess of $2,600,000 over the last decade, and again, that money went back into the general mainstream of commerce. On this expedition alone in the past 8 years, our corporation has spent more than $2,600,000.00 in expenses at dive shops, marinas, fuel docks and grocery stores, welders, diesel engine mechanics, etc….again money that went back into the general mainstream of commerce.
Remember, ALL of the above facts are solely related to eleven shipwrecks in one small 60 square mile patch of earth.

Many major industries, in addition to the general economics industries mentioned above, may feel strong adverse economic impacts because, "In other words, dock builders, recreational divers and fisherman, charter boat operators, commercial fisherman, sub
marine cable layers, pipeline layers, Oil exploration corporations, Mineral Exploration corporations, etc.. will have to be educated, trained, and billions of dollars spent on changes, prevention techniques and measures.”

If you'd condescend to go to the Fisher Museum, you'd see a nice respectful and educational display of a slave ship, The Henrietta Marie:
http://www.melfisher.org/henriettamarie.htm

Nice job, Mel.