1774 2 REALES

[odave]

I found this on the shore of a Lake in Northern California
It's a CAROLUS III DEI GRATIA 1774
It showed a VDI # 82 I'm thinking Quarter
I was very shocked to see a 2 Reales
Excited was an understatement

The question I have is what is the J R after the 2r on the back of the coin?
I identified the coin in 2008 North American coins & Prices Page 415
And are those lines in the coin for cutting it up?

Thanks Dave

 

[gaspars ego]

pieces of eight baby now thats really cool

thanks for sharing
gaspar

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I think so bb..They made some 1/4 reales coins also but rare and hard to find,i found a coin that has 1/16 on it smaller then a half dime..... If i can find that book i wil take a pic. and show it..or until i see my friend..Its a cool find to say the least...........

 

[Don in SJ]

http://www.numismatics.org/cnl/Pistareens.pdf

I will agree it is possible but not logical for that particular coin, but perhaps a dum dum was the owner.

Don

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I think in the old days 1700s,someone would have that coin , and cut and spend as needed,Say some food for a day,cut one outter edge..Maybe something to drink that night,cut another piece of the edge . Before you know it all they had was the middle square.The next day it was time to spend some more ,start cutting the pie shapes and so on..That one coin may have kept that dum dum alive for a week or two..

 

[BuckleBoy]

I think in the old days 1700s,someone would have that coin , and cut and spend as needed,Say some food for a day,cut one outter edge..Maybe something to drink that night,cut another piece of the edge . Before you know it all they had was the middle square.The next day it was time to spend some more ,start cutting the pie shapes and so on..That one coin may have kept that dum dum alive for a week or two..

Relicdude,

I think the issue here is not that the coins were cut--but exactly how they were cut.  I'd never heard of a coin being cut like that, but when I looked I had one in my possession that was.     I agree that the type of cut as outlined on the 2 Reales piece at top makes more sense than cutting a pie-shaped piece...If you want to cut a quarter of the value of the coin, you then end up with Two pieces left over to try and keep up with after you've paid.  Only trouble is, the cut just doesn't look like the pieces would be "of weight."  As can be seen in the article that Don provided above, early settlers here--and abroad evidently--melted down most of the pistareens because they were 83% silver instead of 93% like the Spanish Colony coins of South and Central America.  So the weight/content of silver was highly important.  If your buddy found some of these cut like this, I'd like to see them eventually--and try to tease out an explaination from the evidence at hand...  Most of the ones I've ever seen were cut in pie-shaped wedges (halves, and quarters, and for the 8-Reales, eighths).  I would imagine that a merchant might think twice about accepting an unfamiliar style of "cut" piece without weighing it first. 

Just my thoughts...



And to Don...

I have started reading the article you posted in the link above. 

As a side note to this thread, it is becoming increasingly apparent to me how the course of events in the Colonies was the result of economic and political pressures of the Empires (Spain, France, and England). 

The Seven Years' War--and its role in shaping a sense of identity in the colonies, the debt accrued by England as a result of this war, and its subsequent taxes on the colonies in an attempt to "recover" its losses (over 150 million pounds--which would be tens of Trillions of dollars today!), the French taking the side of America in the Revolution as a way to help fight their old foe, England.(The French fleet was in the harbor when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown.)  And of course the French Revolution on the heels of our own Revolution...

It seems that Wars had a great deal to do with other events--and shaping history--even long after they were over.  This is something that is perhaps worth considering.

And the article above puts some other economic pressures in perspective--like how Spain's debt from war affected the fate of the Pistareen as a "debased" currency, and how currency was kept sparse in the colonies by England in order to keep us dependent on them--and keep us trading Tobacco as a form of money.  Societal pressure evidently played a role as well--since folks who carried a large amount of silver coin could be prosecuted as pirates and have their assets confiscated and sent to the Crown.

It's all fascinating.  Thanks for the article, Don!  I'm starting the part about "cut" coins now...




-Buckleboy

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Theres alot more ways they used to cut them around here.. They knew it was silver, Some people were hungry and sloppy with the cutting i guess........ goodluck to all

 

[mikewaz]

I agree with a lot of others on this thread. The lines give the coin character instead of being just another stamped coin.
Way to go!!!
Mike

 

[BuckleBoy]

   Theres alot  more ways they used to cut them around here.. They knew it was silver, Some  people were hungry and sloppy with the cutting i guess........ goodluck to all

I guess my point is that it wouldn't pay to be sloppy with the cutting...it'd be like paying with a $10 bill for something that was $4.99 with tax and then walking out thinking you'd paid with a $5...

We now have two examples with similar cut marks on this thread--and I'd really like to see photos of the examples your friend found...perhaps I should start a new thread for this, but I'd also like to see any examples from someone else.  I feel like we should be able to figure this one out.

Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Thats a great idea BB..A new post for cut spanish silver..Theres tons of them out there..I will try and contact him..Hes on here from time to time.But only posted 1 thing..Sorry about all this on your post odave..I think its a great find to see one like that..Instead of all the cut up pieces.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Thats a great idea BB..A new post for cut spanish silver..Theres tons of them out there..I will try and contact him..Hes on here from time to time.But only posted 1 thing..Sorry about all this on your post odave..I think its a great find to see one like that..Instead of all the cut up pieces.

Yes, your coin is a great find odave, and I think it is really cool that it has opened the door on a mystery for us to solve.

Relicdude, if your friend posts--see if he minds if we start some discussion in his thread.

Don, we'll be in touch.

Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[Kas]

Thats a nice piece of history to see the lines in it. 8- bits..Great find..They had it marked and ready to cut in the 1700s

Can't be 8 bits. would have to be an 8 reale. 2 reale, 2 bit coin, or 25 cents at the time. It does look marked to cut, but, I don't know why you'd cut a 2 reale into 8 parts.

Excellent find by the way.

 

[odave]

Thats a great idea BB..A new post for cut spanish silver..Theres tons of them out there..I will try and contact him..Hes on here from time to time.But only posted 1 thing..Sorry about all this on your post odave..I think its a great find to see one like that..Instead of all the cut up pieces.

Yes, your coin is a great find odave, and I think it is really cool that it has opened the door on a mystery for us to solve.

Relicdude, if your friend posts--see if he minds if we start some discussion in his thread.

Don, we'll be in touch.

Regards,


Buckleboy

I'm glad my coin has opened the door of Mystery,My first thoughts when i found it was the lines were probably cut lines
Here is a close up in the spot where i found it.
It's an interesting coin and topic, we'll all finds the answers.

Dave

 

[{Sentinel}]

Nice find bud!!

 

[Carver]

Hey Dave,, Reading all the replies on your find,,, it's pretty obvious of the significance of your find,,,, It seems pieces are found but rarely a whole coin that is marked for cutting,,,, I would guess the markings would increase the value of the coin?? Truly amazing find my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dan

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Some eye candy ..

 

[Carver]

So tell me RELICDUDE,,,,, how did they cut these coins Did they just keep sawing on them with a knife or what I'm really curious,,,,, this is way interesting!!!!

 

[odave]

On the back of my coin if you cut through the lines across the coin you would get 4 pie shaped pieces,or you could cut it to get other shapes ,,,,,Interesting Example

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Notice how big the whole 2 reales look in the pic at the top ..Thats what i ment,about they would cut all size reales 8/4/2/1/ ---1/2..I like the little tiny pieces on the bottom left the best .. There are some square ones in there like what would happen if you cliped the edges off.. Keep up the search at the lake...............

 

[odave]

Notice how big the whole 2 reales look in the pic at the top ..Thats what i ment,about they would cut all size reales 8/4/2/1/ ---1/2..I like the little tiny pieces on the bottom left the best .. There are some square ones in there like what would happen if you cliped the edges off.. Keep up the search at the lake...............

Your right ,Many sizes could come from cutting, Great pic of all the Reales cut in different sizes,
Eye candy indeed
I Will continue to search the area of the Lake !

Dave

 

[Don in SJ]

Dave, the odd ball sized coins in the photo posted by Relicdude are not Milled Spanish Silver, but Cobs. No milled coins are odd balled shaped in that photo.

Cobs were clipped, not milled coins like yours. Here is a quote from the Notre Dame website about Cobs:

"Cobs also circulated as coinage, many cobs made their way to the English colonies where they were used both as coins in commerce and hoarded as specie. As the cobs were crudely produced it was quite easy for colonials to clip off some silver and then pass the coin off at full value."

Once milled coins replaced the cobs, that is when the pie slicing started and the term "bits".

Don