A Test for Sandsted

[aarthrj3811]

OK, let's say you are with them, in person. What sort of demonstration would you expect them to be able to perform, in order to convince you that they can, indeed, dowse the dates on coins?

Good question Carl...I would take the coins in my pocket and place them under something. I them would have him Dowse the coins and give me the dates. I would then decide if he had Dowsed the coins.....No made up odds or any of the other gimics just what I saw him do. Just my life experence to go by.....I have a good idea of how many I would able to date if I guessed at the dates ...Art

Hahahahaha...."your instructor Realde....."
If there's anyone here who knows less about mathematics than you, it's Realde. Talk about the blind leading the blind.....

Gee af1733.....You know more about Math than all those Educated People on the web?

 

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[ClonedSIM]

OK, let's say you are with them, in person. What sort of demonstration would you expect them to be able to perform, in order to convince you that they can, indeed, dowse the dates on coins?

Good question Carl...I would take the coins in my pocket and place them under something. I them would have him Dowse the coins and give me the dates. I would then decide if he had Dowsed the coins.....No made up odds or any of the other gimics just what I saw him do. Just my life experence to go by.....I have a good idea of how many I would able to date if I guessed at the dates ...Art

.
Please tell us what the difference is between taking the coins from your pocket and Carl packaging them and mailing them off?

And here's a news flash: Whether or not you believe it, the odds of someone dowsing the dates from your pocket coins exist, even if they haven't been calculated. You're surrounded by math Art, and you can't escape.

And how many dates could you correctly guess. I'd love to know.

Hahahahaha...."your instructor Realde....."
If there's anyone here who knows less about mathematics than you, it's Realde. Talk about the blind leading the blind.....

Gee af1733.....You know more about Math than all those Educated People on the web?

Just because you read something written by an educated person does not make you educated as well, but it's a good start. And, yes, I know more about math than you or Realde, but I'm not going say I know more than everyone with anything written on the web. But if you had truly read everything written about mathematics then you would already understand probability

 

[aarthrj3811]

Please tell us what the difference is between taking the coins from your pocket and Carl packaging them and mailing them off?

Gee....I see no difference except for in my example I was there and the fact that I answered Carls question.

Just because you read something written by an educated person does not make you educated as well, but it's a good start. And, yes, I know more about math than you or Realde, but I'm not going say I know more than everyone with anything written on the web. But if you had truly read everything written about mathematics then you would already understand probability

You see af1733.........The mis-use of Math is the problem...Using Math as if it is a Fact is the problem....probability is not a fact...it is a guess...It seems that the mis-use of Math is a big problem and my life experience seems to be go along with that statement. I did not read everything about Math as you have stated. I did read enough to learn that that this forum is full of mis-use of Math....I know it is confusing but get your facts straight and quit guessing.

And how many dates could you correctly guess. I'd love to know.

I think it would be pretty close to "0". One would be a LUCKY guess....Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Please tell us what the difference is between taking the coins from your pocket and Carl packaging them and mailing them off?

Gee....I see no difference except for in my example I was there and the fact that I answered Carls question.

And Carl can't be there with Sandy, so he's using the next best option available to insure a fair test. What's the problem?

 

[ClonedSIM]

Just because you read something written by an educated person does not make you educated as well, but it's a good start. And, yes, I know more about math than you or Realde, but I'm not going say I know more than everyone with anything written on the web. But if you had truly read everything written about mathematics then you would already understand probability

You see af1733.........The mis-use of Math is the problem...Using Math as if it is a Fact is the problem....probability is not a fact...it is a guess...It seems that the mis-use of Math is a big problem and my life experience seems to be go along with that statement. I did not read everything about Math as you have stated. I did read enough to learn that that this forum is full of mis-use of Math....I know it is confusing but get your facts straight and quit guessing.

Wow, all of the sudden Art's a rocket scientist!

How is math being misused, Art? If you suddenly know all about math and can comfortably accuse people here of misusing it, then point out specific examples and then show the corrected math to prove your point. If you can't do this, and you only feel like there's something wrong with the math, then keep your mind directed to things you do understand, like maybe your Easy-Bake oven?

 

[aarthrj3811]

And Carl can't be there with Sandy, so he's using the next best option available to insure a fair test. What's the problem?

Gee Boo..I just gave an answer to a question...Now who has the problem?

Wow, all of the sudden Art's a rocket scientist!

If thats what you think

How is math being misused, Art? If you suddenly know all about math and can comfortably accuse people here of misusing it, then point out specific examples and then show the corrected math to prove your point.

You know where I got my information...so check it for yourself. A lot of people have told you the same thing so I am in good company.

If you can't do this, and you only feel like there's something wrong with the math, then keep your mind directed to things you do understand, like maybe your Easy-Bake oven?

When I put 2 minutes into my Easy-Bake oven it doesn't guess that I wanted it to run for 6 minutes. If it operated like this I would put it in the garbage...Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

How is math being misused, Art? If you suddenly know all about math and can comfortably accuse people here of misusing it, then point out specific examples and then show the corrected math to prove your point.

You know where I got my information...so check it for yourself. A lot of people have told you the same thing so I am in good company.

Translation: "I can't correct the math here since I don't understand it, so I'll just tell you to find it yourself and act like I accomplished something."

Once again, I give up, does anyone else want to teach math to a brick wall?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI some one asked me, why do I post when none of the sceptics can / will answer my questions. It is really simple. I am not posting for them, but for the benefit of the hundreds of visitors to these sites Many have em'd me to ask "are these guys real"? Why are they so self centered and make such self aggrandizing remarks while running down anyone else, even for grammer, which has nothing to do with intelligence, or the subject at hand, just lack of a formal education.? I merely tell them to just watch their posts which are actually silly, and self revealing. even go so far as to post many no's as presumed evidence of their superior intelligence, of course most are simply copied out of a text. the proof of the pudding. Actually most of their posts are self defeating.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Art try http//'en.wikipedia.org type in "misuse and using false data in computing statistics". There areover 3015 pages

Like Marks, I am a sceptic, but of a different kind. His scepticism is directed towards anything he regards as "paranormal", taking as normal that which lies within the limits of ---- "current" -- scientific understanding.

"My scepticism is directed towards the --------"assumption that we know enough to proclaim what is possible and what is not".

Tropical Tramp

 

[Jean310]

How is math being misused, Art? If you suddenly know all about math and can comfortably accuse people here of misusing it, then point out specific examples and then show the corrected math to prove your point.

You know where I got my information...so check it for yourself. A lot of people have told you the same thing so I am in good company.

Translation: "I can't correct the math here since I don't understand it, so I'll just tell you to find it yourself and act like I accomplished something."

Once again, I give up, does anyone else want to teach math to a brick wall?

You know I think a brick wall has more math comprehension than, Art. He is a classic example of mathematics-challenged, and there isn't anything any of us are going to do to change that fact. And, Art will always belittle and put down that which he understands the least. Why do you think he constantly has an aversion to anything where numbers are involved? (rhetorical)

 

[ClonedSIM]

You know I think a brick wall has more math comprehension than, Art. He is a classic example of mathematics-challenged, and there isn't anything any of us are going to do to change that fact. And, Art will always belittle and put down that which he understands the least. Why do you think he constantly has an aversion to anything where numbers are involved? (rhetorical)

LOL! Come now, Jean! Do you actually think Art understands the word rhetorical? I'm sure there will be an answer from him shortly.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Gee Jean...Look whos calling the kettle black...Art

 

[Jean310]

Gee Jean...Look whos calling the kettle black...Art

Is that the best you can come up with? Think it might be past your nap time.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ............. huh................ whatzat...........

 

[ClonedSIM]

Gee Jean...Look whos calling the kettle black...Art

Calling the kettle black, huh Art? What, because Jean (and everyone else here) is telling you that you don't understand the mathematics behind probability, are you trying to say Jean doesn't understand something you know about?

Dowsing, perhaps?

 

[aarthrj3811]

No af1733.....I see a lot of math in this thread. I ask for an exact number and all I get is Odds. I see calulations but when I ask what do they mean I again get odds. Whan I ask what the base for the odds are I get called names. The only mention of any study is for flipping coins. When I ask how many coins I would have to date to beat the random odds I again get odds, MY QUESTION IS......HOW MANY COINS DOES SANDSTED HAVE TO GET CORRECT TO DO BETTER THAN RAMDOM CHANCE?? That should be an easy answer so how about an answer...Art

 

[Oroblanco]

Carl wrote: Going into this test, I knew that he might succeed by luck, and that such a success might then be used as absolute proof of dowsing. But with the persistent denials that there is any way to test dowsing, I thought it more important to demonstrate how an objective test is carried out.

Then you do see my problem with this test - that a success might be taken as "proof" of dowsing, when it really could have been simple luck. I for one, make no such denial that dowsing can be tested, and have stated how it can be done - the dowsing I am talking about here is finding water; do it in the field, bring drilling equipment, etc just as Betz's study did and showed that dowsing works - however for some reason we keep hearing how "trials" and "tests" have shown dowsing to be a failure, none of which were done in the manner of Betz's study which tested traditional water-finding dowsing, which is the only type I have seen and done successfully.

If dowsing works, it will have to be better than chance.

You seem to be lumping Sandsted's claim of dowsing DATES OF COINS as "dowsing" including every type of dowsing, including finding water, dowsing maps, etc. Is that what you want to say?

af1733 wrote And Carl can't be there with Sandy, so he's using the next best option available to insure a fair test. What's the problem?

Well how about having a friend or dis-interested party who happens to live near Sandsted, be there as a witness? Of course, his eyewitness testimony would mean nothing to a skeptic right? Yeeesh.

jean310 wrote {color=brown]You know I think a brick wall has more math comprehension than, Art. He is a classic example of mathematics-challenged, <snip>[/color]

More insult. Yes Jean you are making at least ONE fact absolutely CRYSTAL CLEAR.

af1733 wrote: Do you actually think Art understands the word rhetorical?

Yet more insult, and from you af1733, which does surprise me since I had a different impression of you.

Quote from: aarthrj3811 on Today at 01:44:47 PM
Gee Jean...Look whos calling the kettle black...Art

Jean310 wrote Is that the best you can come up with? Think it might be past your nap time.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ............. huh................ whatzat...........

More insult, Jean? What should the readers here be concluding about you?

Oroblanco.

 

[Jean310]

I for one, make no such denial that dowsing can be tested, and have stated how it can be done - the dowsing I am talking about here is finding water; do it in the field, bring drilling equipment, etc just as Betz's study did and showed that dowsing works
Oroblanco.

You've made more than one reference to the Betz study.

Two questions for you, Oro:

1.) Are you aware the Betz study has been examined by other investigators, and that it was found to be full of errors and erroneous conclusions which were based completely on those errors?

2.) Are you familiar with the Kassel Dowsing Test, and the results from that test?


---only a simple yes/no answer is required

 

[Oroblanco]

Jean310 wrote:1.) Are you aware the Betz study has been examined by other investigators, and that it was found to be full of errors and erroneous conclusions which were based completely on those errors?


Would you care to list those other investigators, and their conclusions? I have heard this stated here but failed to find any such study of a study. Do you, personally, feel that Betz's study is erroneous and faulty? Have you read it, in entirety?

2.) Are you familiar with the Kassel Dowsing Test, and the results from that test?

Yes, it was a very different type of test and different type of "dowsing" not executed in the field. I know you didn't want me to post anything more than YES or NO, but at least identify the differences when trying to compare studies.

Oroblanco

 

[aarthrj3811]

1.) Are you aware the Betz study has been examined by other investigators, and that it was found to be full of errors and erroneous conclusions which were based completely on those errors?

Jean...Are we talking about the real Betz study or the so called Betz test that every one else calls the Barn Test?....Art

 

[Jean310]

Do you, personally, feel that Betz's study is erroneous and faulty? Have you read it, in entirety?

Yes.
Yes.

Yes, it was a very different type of test and different type of "dowsing" not executed in the field. I know you didn't want me to post anything more than YES or NO, but at least identify the differences when trying to compare studies.

Oroblanco

Different? How so? It was conducted using a willing body of accomplished water dowsers. All had prior experience, all agreed that what they were asked to do was completely fair, and reasonable.

Did you call it different because the results failed to show any compelling evidence for the practice of dowsing being any better than random selection?

--- The propensity to score the hits and neglect the misses is probably the number one reason for the flourishing of superstition and pseudoscience today, including dowsing. (by Rasmus Jansson)

--- Simple truths about nature can't choose to hide from the skeptical minds and be seen by the gullible at the same time. (by Rasmus Jansson)

--- We also know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling. (Henri Poincare (1854-1912))

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Jean....Another non answer...Art