All The President's Gold book released
- Thread starter victorio1
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sdcfia
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My comment on the TY video:
Another attempt to peddle this adventure tale to a new audience. Let's start with the first half of the video. Clarence's first book itself blows up most of the fantasies surrounding Noss's involvement. 1) Noss's "gold bars" were 70% copper with significant gold values. An assayer's report is provided in the book. 2) Noss obtained the bars from the Caballo Mountains west of Victorio Peak on the Rio Grande. Much separate testimony beginning in the late 1920s supports this. 3) The copper bars originated at Santa Rita del Cobre, 50 miles west of the Caballos and were secreted sometime in the 1700s by persons unidentified. Early reports identify the Santa Rita crude bars matching the Noss assay ( from other published sources). 4) Noss fabricated the 1937 "hunting trip discovery" at Victorio Peak to create a red herring, transferring interest away from the Caballos (not acknowledged in the book). 5) Testimony from Noss's own later "recovery project" personnel indicate that the project was a fraudulent investment scheme, yielding nothing for years. This fits Noss's character. 6) Ryan murdered Noss in 1947, possibly working for parties unknown, ending the Noss involvement, which essentially set up Victorio Peak as a "massive Spanish treasure cache". So much for the first half of the video and Noss, the career criminal's dog and pony show. Little of it supports "the well known Noss legend".
Now for the second half of the video. Yes, the US government, an organized criminal cartel, used the convenient "Noss story" to pull off a perfect laundering scheme for "recovering Spanish gold from government property". Gold stolen from Germany after WWII was moved from points unknown to Victorio Peak and then not too secretly "recovered" to great fanfare, sworn eye witness affidavits, yada yada. It's even possible some of the gold was stolen from Fort Knox too, considering the government criminals involved. Who got all the WWII gold? Your government criminals, of course.
Bottom line - I hope these two guys continue to make money hawking this story. They've been at it for years and have worked hard. The Noss material is fantasy, but the government chicanery is valid, IMO. Individual details are debatable, but the theft by your rulers is a no brainer.
Another attempt to peddle this adventure tale to a new audience. Let's start with the first half of the video. Clarence's first book itself blows up most of the fantasies surrounding Noss's involvement. 1) Noss's "gold bars" were 70% copper with significant gold values. An assayer's report is provided in the book. 2) Noss obtained the bars from the Caballo Mountains west of Victorio Peak on the Rio Grande. Much separate testimony beginning in the late 1920s supports this. 3) The copper bars originated at Santa Rita del Cobre, 50 miles west of the Caballos and were secreted sometime in the 1700s by persons unidentified. Early reports identify the Santa Rita crude bars matching the Noss assay ( from other published sources). 4) Noss fabricated the 1937 "hunting trip discovery" at Victorio Peak to create a red herring, transferring interest away from the Caballos (not acknowledged in the book). 5) Testimony from Noss's own later "recovery project" personnel indicate that the project was a fraudulent investment scheme, yielding nothing for years. This fits Noss's character. 6) Ryan murdered Noss in 1947, possibly working for parties unknown, ending the Noss involvement, which essentially set up Victorio Peak as a "massive Spanish treasure cache". So much for the first half of the video and Noss, the career criminal's dog and pony show. Little of it supports "the well known Noss legend".
Now for the second half of the video. Yes, the US government, an organized criminal cartel, used the convenient "Noss story" to pull off a perfect laundering scheme for "recovering Spanish gold from government property". Gold stolen from Germany after WWII was moved from points unknown to Victorio Peak and then not too secretly "recovered" to great fanfare, sworn eye witness affidavits, yada yada. It's even possible some of the gold was stolen from Fort Knox too, considering the government criminals involved. Who got all the WWII gold? Your government criminals, of course.
Bottom line - I hope these two guys continue to make money hawking this story. They've been at it for years and have worked hard. The Noss material is fantasy, but the government chicanery is valid, IMO. Individual details are debatable, but the theft by your rulers is a no brainer.
nmth
Full Member
There are a number of different reported assays for material that Noss presented.
He also recovered metal from more than one location.
The 70% Copper with high Gold content and minor Silver is much more representative of Hillsboro porphyry than anything around Silver City. Hillsboro being the second largest recorded Gold deposit in the state and within sight lines of the Caballos right next to the San Andres and also pretty clearly represented on the book jacket map. Likely some of the earliest material he recovered with Carriaga and other early hunting partners.
Silver City area material (i.e., Santa Rita, etc.) was likely to have been taken south along the well-known Copper road, branches of which existed terminating in Janos, MX or the original El Paseo del Norte, MX. It would have had very little gold, and be either almost pure Copper or have majority minority Silver. Exception of course for the nice majority Gold concentrated in your backyard (which would have been pointless to dilute down to majority Copper).
Some also say Noss used decoy bars because he was getting ripped off. He was not the only one getting ripped off in the same timeframe: see Buster and Willie.
Cherry picking from among the wide array of material can build a story, if that's the sort of thing you are into.
A few run-ins with the law, weaknesses the likes of which any man could and do experience, and running angles to try and make ends meet in the post-depression era pretty much describe the "everyman" of the day, not a standout criminal mastermind. Why not have a dry treasure hole closer to town if you are running a scam? Having been to the Basin and all over that surrounding country, I can teel you that 1930's vintage vehicles on rocky arroyos were probably a major risk to actual safety getting there and back way beyond a minor inconvenience.
The Noss saga does not exist in a vacuum. Others have run across similar material in the same region. Testimony from the books even makes some of those explicit. There's too much smoke for their to have been zero fire. There are also materials to which you do not have access - obviously a statement like this will not convince you personally, but may be relevant to others who have not yet tied a neat bow in their mind around a complex subject. Obviously, lacking a time machine, I can't be 100% certain about anything other than what I have seen firsthand in the region and in archives.
I don't think the guys in the YT video are making as much money off this all as you might imagine.
You are an excellent and diligent researcher, with whose conclusions (in part) I obviously disagree.
Sorry to have missed you at the shindig last month (heard you might make an appearance). I said nice things to my companions in advance of your anticipated arrival. Business required me to depart early.
You should finish your other books.
He also recovered metal from more than one location.
The 70% Copper with high Gold content and minor Silver is much more representative of Hillsboro porphyry than anything around Silver City. Hillsboro being the second largest recorded Gold deposit in the state and within sight lines of the Caballos right next to the San Andres and also pretty clearly represented on the book jacket map. Likely some of the earliest material he recovered with Carriaga and other early hunting partners.
Silver City area material (i.e., Santa Rita, etc.) was likely to have been taken south along the well-known Copper road, branches of which existed terminating in Janos, MX or the original El Paseo del Norte, MX. It would have had very little gold, and be either almost pure Copper or have majority minority Silver. Exception of course for the nice majority Gold concentrated in your backyard (which would have been pointless to dilute down to majority Copper).
Some also say Noss used decoy bars because he was getting ripped off. He was not the only one getting ripped off in the same timeframe: see Buster and Willie.
Cherry picking from among the wide array of material can build a story, if that's the sort of thing you are into.
A few run-ins with the law, weaknesses the likes of which any man could and do experience, and running angles to try and make ends meet in the post-depression era pretty much describe the "everyman" of the day, not a standout criminal mastermind. Why not have a dry treasure hole closer to town if you are running a scam? Having been to the Basin and all over that surrounding country, I can teel you that 1930's vintage vehicles on rocky arroyos were probably a major risk to actual safety getting there and back way beyond a minor inconvenience.
The Noss saga does not exist in a vacuum. Others have run across similar material in the same region. Testimony from the books even makes some of those explicit. There's too much smoke for their to have been zero fire. There are also materials to which you do not have access - obviously a statement like this will not convince you personally, but may be relevant to others who have not yet tied a neat bow in their mind around a complex subject. Obviously, lacking a time machine, I can't be 100% certain about anything other than what I have seen firsthand in the region and in archives.
I don't think the guys in the YT video are making as much money off this all as you might imagine.
You are an excellent and diligent researcher, with whose conclusions (in part) I obviously disagree.
Sorry to have missed you at the shindig last month (heard you might make an appearance). I said nice things to my companions in advance of your anticipated arrival. Business required me to depart early.
You should finish your other books.
sdcfia
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Good post nmth. We'll have to get together again some time to compare notes. I do have contacts in Utah and I am curious about their state, but I had no plans for the Moon Lake gathering. There's plenty of good stories about many different topics in Utah.
The Santa Rita copper recoveries I've referred to were not from the later porphyry deposits, but from the extremely rich and plentiful surface and shallow natives and oxides of the early life of the mine. That early history is excellently presented in the definitive Santa Rita del Cobre by Huggard and Humble. The pack train copper deliveries to Janos began in the early 1800s. The Santa Rita-to-Caballos link was the well established pack trail from the Rio Grande at Caballos to the Mimbres River near Santa Rita. It was the route Lt. Emory mapped in 1846.
My interest is in the earliest activities at Santa Rita and environs. We know two church bells dated 1727 were found on the West Fork of the Gila River that are alleged (not proven) to have been cast at Santa Rita (Church Bells). This discovery provides circumstantial evidence that the copper mine was exploited much earlier than the official 1803 date. Too, the records of Cabezo de Vaca's exploits in the 1530s indicate he was likely in southwest New Mexico and aware of copper artifacts in possession of the indigenous people there. Of particular note is that his traveling companion was Estevanico, who guided Marcos de Niza into the area in 1539 searching for rumored riches.
The "sort of thing I'm into" is searching for the truth of these matters. You're right - there is no definitive evidence for any of this, but there is an array of dispersed historical and anecdotal evidence that fits a pattern when pieced together over centuries. Relying on the "Noss Legend" or claims by the US government to define a narrative provides more sticky questions than easy answers in my opinion. For the time being, I'll stick with my comments in Post 2 above - always subject to change if warranted, of course.
Here's a Santa Rita miner with leather ore bags and a chicken ladder retrieved from a very old covered up mine tunnel that was exposed during early 20th century open pit operations.
The Santa Rita copper recoveries I've referred to were not from the later porphyry deposits, but from the extremely rich and plentiful surface and shallow natives and oxides of the early life of the mine. That early history is excellently presented in the definitive Santa Rita del Cobre by Huggard and Humble. The pack train copper deliveries to Janos began in the early 1800s. The Santa Rita-to-Caballos link was the well established pack trail from the Rio Grande at Caballos to the Mimbres River near Santa Rita. It was the route Lt. Emory mapped in 1846.
My interest is in the earliest activities at Santa Rita and environs. We know two church bells dated 1727 were found on the West Fork of the Gila River that are alleged (not proven) to have been cast at Santa Rita (Church Bells). This discovery provides circumstantial evidence that the copper mine was exploited much earlier than the official 1803 date. Too, the records of Cabezo de Vaca's exploits in the 1530s indicate he was likely in southwest New Mexico and aware of copper artifacts in possession of the indigenous people there. Of particular note is that his traveling companion was Estevanico, who guided Marcos de Niza into the area in 1539 searching for rumored riches.
The "sort of thing I'm into" is searching for the truth of these matters. You're right - there is no definitive evidence for any of this, but there is an array of dispersed historical and anecdotal evidence that fits a pattern when pieced together over centuries. Relying on the "Noss Legend" or claims by the US government to define a narrative provides more sticky questions than easy answers in my opinion. For the time being, I'll stick with my comments in Post 2 above - always subject to change if warranted, of course.
Here's a Santa Rita miner with leather ore bags and a chicken ladder retrieved from a very old covered up mine tunnel that was exposed during early 20th century open pit operations.
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