Another Greenstone Preform

[Th3rty7]

Found this piece a few hundred yards from where I found the celt preform. It's been pecked and polished into shape, very smooth and well made. I'm calling it a preform but that's just my best guess. I've got some ideas on what it is but would appreciate hearing any comments or opinions you may have.

 

[arrorhead junky]

wow very nice

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Ryan, any chance it might actually be a Bar Atl-Atl Weight and in fact a complete piece? Just something to think about. It sure looks like they pecked and polished it for a reason.

 

[Tnmountains]

I do not know. I do know that I have put some greenstone celts under magnification and saw many incised lines in the areas they were polishing in its final stage. What are you thinking? Cool find.

 

[Th3rty7]

Ryan, any chance it might actually be a Bar Atl-Atl Weight and in fact a complete piece? Just something to think about. It sure looks like they pecked and polished it for a reason.

Certainly possible I believe. Bar weight and finished piece crossed my mind. The flat bottom would make sense.

 

[Th3rty7]

I do not know. I do know that I have put some greenstone celts under magnification and saw many incised lines in the areas they were polishing in its final stage. What are you thinking? Cool find.

My first thought was undrilled pendant. I think AtlAtl weight or tablet may be a possibility as well. Appreciate the comments and opinions.

Here's three greenstone pieces I've found this year. The center piece on the right I think are unfinished celts, the piece on the left is thinner and worked differently, it may be finished I still have alot to learn about hardstone artifacts. Also put up two AtlAtl weights / bar weights for comparison, they're Ohio pieces.

 

[bigrush828]

very cool finds!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Ryan, I'm not trying to dispute your claim of the last two pieces being Bar At-Atl Weights and the banded slate one is for sure, but the other piece looks more like an unfinished Celt to me. From what I see in the pictures it looks like they had already started the battering of the blade edge to work it into shape before grinding it to get a sharp edge. Without holding it and getting a better perspective that's just what I see from those two pictures.

 

[Harry Pristis]

I am fascinated that these celt-like greenstone objects could be atlatl weights. How would they be affixed to the atlatl? Is there some archeological information on such weights - that is, has this sort of weight been found with the remains of an atlatl?

Here are some greenstone celts found in Florida (I'm reasonably confident that these are celts). The closest greenstone source is in North Georgia, I believe.

​

 

[Th3rty7]

Ryan, I'm not trying to dispute your claim of the last two pieces being Bar At-Atl Weights and the banded slate one is for sure, but the other piece looks more like an unfinished Celt to me. From what I see in the pictures it looks like they had already started the battering of the blade edge to work it into shape before grinding it to get a sharp edge. Without holding it and getting a better perspective that's just what I see from those two pictures.

That's all right man I can deal with dispute, I'm not going to be upset or get my feelings hurt. I think it's another case of looking at 2d pictures and making a judgement call. It's some damage to the end of the piece. Here's another pic of the bar weight, X Bright from Ohio. Elongated eliptical shape with ground edges that are squared off.

 

[Twitch]

Th3rty7 - I have nothing useful to add. Cool find. I very rarely find even broken hardstone stuff, probably 10 or so in my life.

 

[Th3rty7]

I am fascinated that these celt-like greenstone objects could be atlatl weights. How would they be affixed to the atlatl? Is there some archeological information on such weights - that is, has this sort of weight been found with the remains of an atlatl?

Here are some greenstone celts found in Florida (I'm reasonably confident that these are celts). The closest greenstone source is in North Georgia, I believe.

​

Appreciate the addition Harry.I would like to know the answer to your association question as well, so far I haven't found anything conclusive. I'll be adding some info and examples to this thread.

Natural greenstone outcrops are fairly common in this part of Va., in fact there is a creek near here that is full of greenstone cobbles, baseball to small boulders in size. I also know it outcrops along the alleghany and blue ridge mtn range. I've read it was a prestigious and highly regarded material and was often presented to the important members of the tribe.

Here's an interesting article I was just reading about a unique atlatl weight from your neck of the woods. Maybe you haven't come across this page before.

http://paleoenterprises.com/auniquefloridaatlatlweight.htm


Also some examples I pictured from Bennetts Ancient Indian Artifacts book. I doubt Jim would mind.

 

[Th3rty7]

Th3rty7 - I have nothing useful to add. Cool find. I very rarely find even broken hardstone stuff, probably 10 or so in my life.

Thanks Twitch, unfortunately I don't have alot to add either, I just recently really started researching and specifically looking for hardstone. I've spent many years looking for small pieces of flint with a worked edge that there's no telling how many pieces of hardstone I've walked right by. Last year and this year I sort of switched my surface hunting strategy of spending as much time looking for hardstone as on flint, and it's paying off. It's out there it just doesn't jump out at you like chert in the dirt. Jmo

 

[Harry Pristis]

I am fascinated that these celt-like greenstone objects could be atlatl weights. How would they be affixed to the atlatl? Is there some archeological information on such weights - that is, has this sort of weight been found with the remains of an atlatl?

Here are some greenstone celts found in Florida (I'm reasonably confident that these are celts). The closest greenstone source is in North Georgia, I believe.

​

Appreciate the addition Harry.I would like to know the answer to your association question as well, so far I haven't found anything conclusive. I'll be adding some info and examples to this thread.

Natural greenstone outcrops are fairly common in this part of Va., in fact there is a creek near here that is full of greenstone cobbles, baseball to small boulders in size. I also know it outcrops along the alleghany and blue ridge mtn range. I've read it was a prestigious and highly regarded material and was often presented to the important members of the tribe.

Here's an interesting article I was just reading about a unique atlatl weight from your neck of the woods. Maybe you haven't come across this page before.

http://paleoenterprises.com/auniquefloridaatlatlweight.htm

Also some examples I pictured from Bennetts Ancient Indian Artifacts book. I doubt Jim would mind.

Forgive me if I am skeptical about identifications in any collector's guide; my experience with antique bottle guides and with fossil guides does not promote a high degree of confidence.

I did enjoy reading Jim Tatum's article, though it does not answer the question of how the greenstone celt-like objects in this thread might be affixed to an atlatl. You can infer from Tatum's account that we Florida collectors are an impoverished lot when it comes to bannerstones and stone atlatl weights.

I did find interesting Tatum's account of the actual weight of atlatl weights. The actual weight of the six in his collection averages 2.7 ounces. The specific gravity of greenstone is high, so it doesn't take much to weigh 2.7 ounces. I wonder what is the weight of the "hardstone" bar weights in Bennett's guide. What is the weight of the greenstone "preforms" presented in this thread?

 

[Tnmountains]

Very interesting. I bet as in any weapon ,weight was pretty specific. 2.7 oz in stone is not very much. Concidering what the weights job was that 2.7oz does make sense.
I bet there is a math equation to explain this thrust or propulsion

 

[Harry Pristis]

Very interesting. I bet as in any weapon ,weight was pretty specific. 2.7 oz in stone is not very much. Concidering what the weights job was that 2.7oz does make sense.
I bet there is a math equation to explain this thrust or propulsion

Tatum suggests in his linked article that there is a direct correlation between weight of the dart-point and the optimum size of a weight. A heavier weight is not necessarily better.

Tatum further suggests that the weight is not intended - in fact, does not - add momentum (=velocity, distance) to a dart throw. That seems counter-intuitive, but I accept it. He suggests that the weight stabilizes the throw, thus improving only the accuracy.

 

[Th3rty7]

The piece in question is right at 3.3 ounces in weight. After some research and looking at many picture examples I'm leaning more towards undrilled pendant or gorget. I've come across a few examples of Va. greenstone pieces that match the thickness, and more specifically the rounded and nearly beveled edges and corners. Still a big question mark though. This is the type of piece I'd be willing to have authenticated to ease my curiosity. Anyone have a preference in authenticators when it comes to hardstone artifacts?


I found this simple illustration of an atlatl and its components.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~walde/graphics/atlatl.gif

 

[joshuaream]

I've seen some atlatls from Peru and Chile that had a bar type weight mount mid-shaft and no weight on the upper shaft, the few complete atlatls from Indiana and Kentucky have a smaller weight on the uppershaft and no addtional weight mid shaft. My wife was a pretty serious (and seriously pretty ) tennis player when she was younger, and has tennis racquets that are weighted similarly. Some racquets are balanced head heavy or head light.

The bar weights from SA were usually held on by cordage but one was attached with a stitched rawhide covering that as it dried tightened up.

 

[GatorBoy]

Great artifacts...good thread

 

[Th3rty7]

Thanks for the bump, been a while since I've seen this one. Here's that same piece after a couple years of hand polish and another Barweight / Boatstone I found last year. The Barweight has two indentations on the flat side right in the middle, it's perfectly balanced at that point. Both are slightly concave on the bottom side.