Army pack train ....

[Advocat]

I'm just a reader here and enjoy all the discussion about the LDM, which has been an interest since I was a kid. Recently a couple of the clues that Waltz supposedly gave have prompted questions, not sure if they have merit but ....

The comment that someone could "drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it", and the comment "from my mine I can see the military trail, but from the military trail you can't see my mine."

These are two distinct references to the "military" in conjunction with talking about his mine. What about the possibility that Waltz's mine was "on (read that as "under") the military trail he referenced? If it was/is, then Army pack trains may well have passed over it and thus prompted his remark. This could be a mine entrance that goes down from a location actually in the trail and that he covered over with timbers and so forth and camouflaged -- the timbers may be strong enough to support the weight of mules walking over, especially if the opening is not too large. Or, on the other hand, the mine itself might run under the military trail, but the opening to it be off to one side or the other of the trail. If the mine or the opening sat at a high spot along the trail, then it could be possible for him to see portions of the trail from the mine, but the opening of the mine not be visible from the trail itself.

How certain is it that Waltz did make these two comments? Is it more certain he made these, than other comments he made about the mine's location? Just makes me wonder why he had the military on his mind at least twice when commenting about the location of the mine.

.

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I'm just a reader here and enjoy all the discussion about the LDM, which has been an interest since I was a kid. Recently a couple of the clues that Waltz supposedly gave have prompted questions, not sure if they have merit but ....

The comment that someone could "drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it", and the comment "from my mine I can see the military trail, but from the military trail you can't see my mine."

These are two distinct references to the "military" in conjunction with talking about his mine. What about the possibility that Waltz's mine was "on (read that as "under") the military trail he referenced? If it was/is, then Army pack trains may well have passed over it and thus prompted his remark. This could be a mine entrance that goes down from a location actually in the trail and that he covered over with timbers and so forth and camouflaged -- the timbers may be strong enough to support the weight of mules walking over, especially if the opening is not too large. Or, on the other hand, the mine itself might run under the military trail, but the opening to it be off to one side or the other of the trail. If the mine or the opening sat at a high spot along the trail, then it could be possible for him to see portions of the trail from the mine, but the opening of the mine not be visible from the trail itself.

How certain is it that Waltz did make these two comments? Is it more certain he made these, than other comments he made about the mine's location? Just makes me wonder why he had the military on his mind at least twice when commenting about the location of the mine.

.

Welcome aboard. I can't offer anything to indicate he made those claims, nor that he even had a mine that amounted to much, or that if it did it hadn't already been mined out, or that wherever he mined, if he did, was in the Supes

But, I really doubt the story of going to all that work to cover it with logs and rocks and fill and everything.

Why would he do that? Either he did or did not intend to ever return. If he intended to return that would be a lot wasted work that (covering then uncovering) he could have put toward pulling all that supposed easy gold laying about.

If not, why not mine instead of covering anyway for those last weeks or however long that job took?

What should he care if it was found if he wasn't going back?

Why would it suddenly need covering if he had been working it all those years with no problems?

Doesn't add up.

 

[Oroblanco]

I'm just a reader here and enjoy all the discussion about the LDM, which has been an interest since I was a kid. Recently a couple of the clues that Waltz supposedly gave have prompted questions, not sure if they have merit but ....

The comment that someone could "drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it", and the comment "from my mine I can see the military trail, but from the military trail you can't see my mine."

These are two distinct references to the "military" in conjunction with talking about his mine. What about the possibility that Waltz's mine was "on (read that as "under") the military trail he referenced? If it was/is, then Army pack trains may well have passed over it and thus prompted his remark. This could be a mine entrance that goes down from a location actually in the trail and that he covered over with timbers and so forth and camouflaged -- the timbers may be strong enough to support the weight of mules walking over, especially if the opening is not too large. Or, on the other hand, the mine itself might run under the military trail, but the opening to it be off to one side or the other of the trail. If the mine or the opening sat at a high spot along the trail, then it could be possible for him to see portions of the trail from the mine, but the opening of the mine not be visible from the trail itself.

How certain is it that Waltz did make these two comments? Is it more certain he made these, than other comments he made about the mine's location? Just makes me wonder why he had the military on his mind at least twice when commenting about the location of the mine.

.

At the risk of starting an argument - we can not be 100% certain that Jacob Waltz made any statements at all. We do not have his words first-hand, in fact what we have is really "third hand" info, from people whom interviewed people who knew or met Waltz while he was alive. This is not the best type of information to work with, but neither is it completely without value.

As you noted, it is a point that Waltz made two statements (allegedly, can't prove OR disprove) that link his mine, to the military. The obvious would be that was for good reason, that he had noticed the military trail while at his mine or coming/going to and from it. The next problem is that there are several different "old military trails" in and around the Superstitions. There was one source that claimed to have seen two German prospectors while chasing Apaches through the Superstitions, but nothing solid and even if true, could have been other men than Waltz and his partner/nephew Weiser.

As to the reasoning that Waltz would not have bothered to conceal his mine, I have no idea why that makes any sense, when claim jumpers were the normal state of things in that part of Arizona in the time period, Waltz made caches of rich ore that he could return for if needed (and he did empty two, leaving only one) and the mine was his by discovery, if not claimed, so why should he leave it open for anyone to come and take it? Would you, especially after some not-so-nice people had tried to trail you back to your mine on repeated occasions, and the talk of town was how they would kill him once they found his mine? Waltz had taken out enough gold for himself to be comfortable, left caches like bank accounts he could get if needed, and if they got stolen or some emergency used up all his gold, he could return to his mine for more. I don't see a problem with his logic.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

At the risk of starting an argument - we can not be 100% certain that Jacob Waltz made any statements at all. We do not have his words first-hand, in fact what we have is really "third hand" info, from people whom interviewed people who knew or met Waltz while he was alive. This is not the best type of information to work with, but neither is it completely without value.

As you noted, it is a point that Waltz made two statements (allegedly, can't prove OR disprove) that link his mine, to the military. The obvious would be that was for good reason, that he had noticed the military trail while at his mine or coming/going to and from it. The next problem is that there are several different "old military trails" in and around the Superstitions. There was one source that claimed to have seen two German prospectors while chasing Apaches through the Superstitions, but nothing solid and even if true, could have been other men than Waltz and his partner/nephew Weiser.

As to the reasoning that Waltz would not have bothered to conceal his mine, I have no idea why that makes any sense, when claim jumpers were the normal state of things in that part of Arizona in the time period, Waltz made caches of rich ore that he could return for if needed (and he did empty two, leaving only one) and the mine was his by discovery, if not claimed, so why should he leave it open for anyone to come and take it? Would you, especially after some not-so-nice people had tried to trail you back to your mine on repeated occasions, and the talk of town was how they would kill him once they found his mine? Waltz had taken out enough gold for himself to be comfortable, left caches like bank accounts he could get if needed, and if they got stolen or some emergency used up all his gold, he could return to his mine for more. I don't see a problem with his logic.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Interesting way to spin that. Started out 'allegedly', ended up with unfounded claims "Waltz made caches of rich ore" and such.

Had he had a mine I am sure he would have done something to conceal after every trip(maybe some scrub brush or whatever depending on the situation), all along, but not that massive effort. In fact if he had it and was smart about it he wouldn't make an obvious opening in the first place. This thing was 'supposedly' hard to find to begin with, and unlikely to be found anyway. Maybe he had no mine, only caches? What proof is there?

I still can't imagine that lore of the massive effort to hide the mine.

What proof do we have of his life time gold anyway? Any transaction receipts?

 

[Oroblanco]

Interesting way to spin that. Started out 'allegedly', ended up with unfounded claims "Waltz made caches of rich ore" and such.

Had he had a mine I am sure he would have done something to conceal after every trip(maybe some scrub brush or whatever depending on the situation), all along, but not that massive effort. In fact if he had it and was smart about it he wouldn't make an obvious opening in the first place. This thing was 'supposedly' hard to find to begin with, and unlikely to be found anyway. Maybe he had no mine, only caches? What proof is there?

I still can't imagine that lore of the massive effort to hide the mine.

What proof do we have of his life time gold anyway? Any transaction receipts?

Spin? What I posted is simply based on Waltz's reported actions and statements. You are welcome to interpret the information any way you like of course.

How could you have a "cache" of gold ore, that did NOT originate in a mine? See the problem there? Why would Waltz tell his friends he had a gold mine, attempted to take them to it, and tried to tell them how to find it, if he did not have one? Does that make a lot of sense to you?

For the answers you seek concerning receipts, how rich the ore was, etc, check out:
Amazon.com: The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold (9781879029002): Helen Corbin: Books
Be sure to check out that addenda at the back of the book, two sworn affidavits in particular will provide some of that "proof" you keep posting for.

In an older thread, you can find other evidences including statements of a person who saw the receipts for the shipment of a quarter million dollars worth of gold by Waltz; this is exclusive of the several thousand he shelled out to help his friends Julia and Reiney, and was shipped when the price of gold was pegged at $20.17 an ounce (troy).

I realize you are still baiting but hope you will look up a bit for your own answers, rather than demanding for others to do the research for you. Really though, since you are SO convinced there is nothing to this at all, why do you bother?

As to that "massive effort" to conceal the mine, just how much work do you think it takes, to put in a few logs and fill in with dirt, for an opening "no larger than a barrel" which is one version of it, and the one that I am convinced is the truth, rather than the huge funnel shaped pit deal which really relates to a completely different mine.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek, and to Conceptualized, I hope you find some answers on your own.
Oroblanco

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Hasn't the Pitt Mines been determined to be the LDM?

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

His mine entrance could be as small as a coyote hole behind a boulder on a hill or the base of a mountain range

 

[Oroblanco]

Hasn't the Pitt Mines been determined to be the LDM?

That depends on whom you ask!

I have to say no, the Pit mine is not the LDM. I believe the Pit mine is one of the many old silver mines that dot the area around it, and that it had some good pockets of gold, just as was reported found in other silver mines in the area including the Silver King, or outside the area as at Tombstone. It has the funnel shaped "pit" and a tunnel beneath, as two mines had/have in the Randolph district which is where the Pit mine is, which even Sims Ely and Jim Bark realized are details that do not apply to the LDM, originating in the Ludy brothers aka Peralta mine story. There were <are> over thirty known mines in the Randolph district, pretty much all silver mines as is normal in a silver district. However quite a few people are certainly convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM, so you are welcome to make your own conclusion(s).
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Spin? What I posted is simply based on Waltz's reported actions and statements. You are welcome to interpret the information any way you like of course.

How could you have a "cache" of gold ore, that did NOT originate in a mine?

'a' mine - his

See the problem there? Why would Waltz tell his friends he had a gold mine, attempted to take them to it, and tried to tell them how to find it, if he did not have one? Does that make a lot of sense to you?

Hardly makes sense that he would have failed.

For the answers you seek concerning receipts, how rich the ore was, etc, check out:
Amazon.com: The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold (9781879029002): Helen Corbin: Books
Be sure to check out that addenda at the back of the book, two sworn affidavits in particular will provide some of that "proof" you keep posting for.

In an older thread, you can find other evidences including statements of a person who saw the receipts for the shipment of a quarter million dollars worth of gold by Waltz;

link me?

this is exclusive of the several thousand he shelled out to help his friends Julia and Reiney, and was shipped when the price of gold was pegged at $20.17 an ounce (troy).

Don't think was think cheap since before Waltz was probably born, but not sure of his birth-date Lets go with $20.71, works out to >800 pounds of refined gold? Big box.

I realize you are still baiting

Stop that non sense, you are better than that.

but hope you will look up a bit for your own answers, rather than demanding for others to do the research for you.

I mad no demands, this is a forum. Discuss it if you like. Contribute if you like.

Really though, since you are SO convinced there is nothing to this at all, why do you bother?

As to that "massive effort" to conceal the mine, just how much work do you think it takes, to put in a few logs and fill in with dirt, for an opening "no larger than a barrel" which is one version of it, and the one that I am convinced is the truth, rather than the huge funnel shaped pit deal which really relates to a completely different mine.

This thread OP references the story about lots of logs, covered with rock then native materials and made to look pristine, right? And you drive right over it. Not really something I would attempt in an after noon.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek, and to Conceptualized, I hope you find some answers on your own.
Oroblanco

Thanks!

 

[Oroblanco]

This thread OP references the story about lots of logs, covered with rock then native materials and made to look pristine, right? And you drive right over it. Not really something I would attempt in an after noon.

Remember, there are two versions of what the mine looks like, one, the popular one that has been hunted for over a century without finding, has a huge funnel shaped pit and tunnel beneath, the other version has it with an opening NO LARGER THAN A BARREL and not more than a dozen feet deep! So how much effort do you think that takes to make a good covering for again? An afternoon, perhaps, if you brought the logs with you? That is probably pretty accurate.

If you think about it, the small mine opening, relatively small mine too, makes perfect sense. Waltz did not bring out trainloads of ore, just a few burro loads which was all he needed or desired. It is much easier to understand how such a SMALL opening, could remain un-discovered for over a century, than a huge funnel shaped pit, which should have been spotted with airplanes first started flying over the range, and would have been a major project to cover it up well as you pointed out. The logs just to fill in the funnel part, would be a task to cut down, cut to the right length, drag to the site etc and all that activity might attract the very attention Waltz did not want.

In short I think the LDM was on the small side, not huge, but of course everyone is free to make their own conclusions.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

One interesting point. Waltz prospected for years in different areas of Arizona. Prospectors save samples. His soap box could very well have contained those samples. A good example is the match box. The gold in the matchbox does not look like Superstition gold. All of the Superstition gold I've seen has a copper content. Enough to give it a dark color. The Pitt mine gold also had that copper tint. A friend has some Pitt gold and I'm going to compare it to some of my stuff. I was told though thus is the case. Gold from the west side of the mountain has a very dark copper content. If I was saving ore I would keep my best samples and sell off the other stuff. I strongly doubt the matchbox contains gold from the mountain. Gold from different parts of Arizona has its own look and shape.

 

[sgtfda]

Ill bring some Superstition gold to Dons camp this year. You want to look it over just ask.

 

[sgtfda]

Sample

 

[Oroblanco]

One interesting point. Waltz prospected for years in different areas of Arizona. Prospectors save samples. His soap box could very well have contained those samples. A good example is the match box. The gold in the matchbox does not look like Superstition gold. All of the Superstition gold I've seen has a copper content. Enough to give it a dark color. The Pitt mine gold also had that copper tint. A friend has some Pitt gold and I'm going to compare it to some of my stuff. I was told though thus is the case. Gold from the west side of the mountain has a very dark copper content. If I was saving ore I would keep my best samples and sell off the other stuff. I strongly doubt the matchbox contains gold from the mountain. Gold from different parts of Arizona has its own look and shape.

Well we all have our opinions; however keep in mind that the gold in the matchbox specimen (as with the earring) is not like MOST gold mined in Arizona, which is mostly from a different type of gold vein than Waltz's. <The majority of gold deposits in Arizona are Epithermal type, which are normally shallow and have a good amount of copper alloyed with the gold> This could mean it did not come from AZ, or that it came from the rarest type of gold vein (in Arizona that is rare) a hypothermal type, which has high gold to silver content, little copper, large grain size of the host quartz among other key points. The Vulture mine had hypothermal vein characteristics similar to what the LDM must be, if you look at Vulture gold it does not look like MOST gold found in Arizona either.
<specimen from the Vulture sold at auction>

<borrowed from Vulture Mine Suite AZ - Wickenberg,Maricopa County - 1860-1940 - 2012aug - Mineral Specimens - Holabird-Kagin Americana under Fair Use>

I would also point out that some gold in Arizona has a lot of silver with it, especially from the Oro Blanco district in the southern part of the state; gold found here often looks like silver (hence the name, white gold) I could not find a decent photo of any from there specifically, but here is an example from Australia, with the high silver content making it look silver.


<borrowed from http://museumvictoria.com.au/pages/705/image002.jpg under Fair Use>

Nice gold BTW Sarge and I would be happy to take a peek at it if we make it to the rendezvous, always love to look at gold! Don't show me too much however, I am not THAT trustworthy!

I figured posting what I did, would lead to an argument.

 

[Oroblanco]

Side thing here too but that story of Waltz's candle box having "Fifty different kinds of ore" came from Pete Petrasch, supposedly told to him by Reiney, and Pete never even met Waltz so could not have seen what was in the box, and Reiney may well never have either, for the box was removed while he was not present at Waltz's deathbed. So yes it is possible that it was a collection from every place Waltz prospected from Georgia to California and the Bradshaws, but the specimens we can look at today certainly do not appear to be very different from each other except in size, and the story of the wide variety in the box is of very uncertain provenance.

Look how far afield this has gone from the original post - sorry about that amigos, to try to tie this back in, I do think the military trail is a key landmark, hence Waltz's two statements relating to it.

 

[Not Peralta]

all of this is speculation, if you think about it ,all people know is the man called Jacob waltz had some gold. he must have brought it with him, because no matter what anyone says, no one ever saw his
mine, and no one ever saw him work a mine, all he did was live in that area, and every once in a while take a ride with people following him and turn around and go back home. sounds pretty boring unless your trying to convince people that you actually have a secret gold mine to account for the gold he already has in his possession. theres still a trail to be followed somewhere out there. np

 

[Advocat]

My thoughts tend toward anything BUT a large "pit" mine -- the Peraltas might have worked a pit-type mine, as they could muster the "help", but I don't see Waltz doing that alone or with just one partner. It seems to me that if he got access to a mine through the Peralta connection, then, it was probably not a pit mine but could have been another mine location the Peraltas had discovered and for whatever reason were not yet working or not planning to work (maybe too difficult for them and their team/s to get to, etc.). All speculation. But I wasn't thinking in terms of anything large or difficult for one man to manage covering up to disguise -- if log sections were needed, he'd only need to cut them and haul them in once, what could be packed on a mule for example.

Can anyone comment on who/what was the source for Waltz supposedly having made the relevant references to the military? I tried searching but got back too many hits to dig through. Both those remarks have a ring of truth to them. If the LDM is located adjacent in some way to a military trail, Waltz could have saved time by using the trail to go to and from.

Granted, there were/are several indicated "military" trails. Since one is not specified, then if indeed Waltz made the remarks he must have been referring to a trail that others would have generally understood to be a particular "military trail" at that time.

About the ore -- when assayed, doesn't ore more or less have its own signature? I thought I had read that the matchbox gold is distinct from any known mines. Could be wrong....

 

[Springfield]

... As to the reasoning that Waltz would not have bothered to conceal his mine, I have no idea why that makes any sense, when claim jumpers were the normal state of things in that part of Arizona in the time period, Waltz made caches of rich ore that he could return for if needed (and he did empty two, leaving only one) and the mine was his by discovery, if not claimed, so why should he leave it open for anyone to come and take it? Would you, especially after some not-so-nice people had tried to trail you back to your mine on repeated occasions, and the talk of town was how they would kill him once they found his mine? Waltz had taken out enough gold for himself to be comfortable, left caches like bank accounts he could get if needed, and if they got stolen or some emergency used up all his gold, he could return to his mine for more. I don't see a problem with his logic.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

If he didn't file on the mine, especially after having allegedly worked it secretly and caching a large amount of gold in the hills and under his bed, it's most likely for one reason - he didn't have a mine. Why? Because the gold - if indeed it existed - came from another source.

Waltz kicked around the mining industry for years in Arizona, and apparently was a claim owner or partner in several instances. He knew the drill about the law and procedures of filing claims. The reason that procedure was in place by this time period in Arizona and all other states in the West was to insure the legal rights and establish protocol for protecting them for valid mineral claim holders. In fact, it has been argued that the civil court systems of the various western states grew directly from the legal precedents arising from mining claim disputes within them, since mining districts in many cases were the first jurisdictional entities established in frontier areas. Certainly by the 1870's, the procedure was solid and effective.

Sure, Waltz could have filed on his claim and an army of jumpers could have tried to seize it. This happened innumerable times in the West. However, the issue would have been settled in court. It may have taken time, but that property would have been protected until that time, and if the claim was valid, Waltz would have eventually prevailed.

Of course, knowing the mining game, Waltz also had the option of selling his discovery to a larger operator under whatever terms he could arrange. The 'claim jumper' fear sounds plausible on the surface, but when you look under the hood, it really loses its lustre. So many things in the Waltz rumors, when looked at in a total package, are questionable. To me, if he actually had the gold attributed to him by hearsay, it seems likely he obtained it in some unusual way (high-graded, stolen, etc) and covered those tracks by fabricating the 'richest mine in the world' story.

 

[Not Peralta]

Springfield, I agree, remember Jacob waltz had claims around Prescott and one of the main legislators pushing this and the indian problems with miners was cpt. William h. hardy.
two time legislator and toll road owner, plus several mining adventures in prescott, plus he owned several mercantile stores in Prescott dealing with the miners, he knew all the miners
in that area. np

 

[Oroblanco]

Another long-winded post amigos, extra coffee alert and I must ask your indulgence again; thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote

If he didn't file on the mine, especially after having allegedly worked it secretly and caching a large amount of gold in the hills and under his bed, it's most likely for one reason - he didn't have a mine. Why? Because the gold - if indeed it existed - came from another source. <snip>

I have seen this argument before, along with several others.

Waltz never had a mine (in the Superstitions)

Waltz only had a cache

Waltz would have filed a claim if he really had a mine

and of course

The mine was found already and worked out
etc etc

Everyone has their own conclusions and opinions on this topic. You can reason how Waltz should have filed a claim if he had a mine, how he would have mined out as much gold as possible, etc. It is reasoning on your own logic, not his.
Why would Waltz have failed to take his friends to his mine? How about that he was sick, in fact he was sickly from the date of the great flood of Phoenix the previous spring, until the day he died. The account of this single attempt to take Julia and Reiney to the mine, includes that they took a wagon as far as the Verde river, camped, he told them they would be at the mine the next day, but he sickened during the night and had to be taken back. Otherwise it is possible that the mine would never have been "lost".

One man claimed to have seen Waltz working at the mine - so it is NOT a case that "no one ever saw him working the mine" - Phipps. Of course the skeptics can simply claim there never was a Phipps.

As to the cache theory and NO MINE, this is patently flawed at the core, for a cache of gold ORE had to come FROM A MINE. What mine? The Vulture, the Bulldog, the Black Queen, the Big Rebel, perhaps? None will fit. We know that Waltz was an experienced prospector, had found or helped find several good gold mines in the Bradshaws, for he did file on them. Which brings us to the next issue, why then did Waltz NOT file on his mine in the Superstitions?

First of all the situation in the Bradshaws, was very different from the Superstitions. Yes there were hostile Indians in the Bradshaws, hence the petitions for protection by the miners. There is the key word - miners, plural. There were many miners operating in the Bradshaws, and contrary to popular misconception, miners in the 'good old days' were sort of like a brotherhood, they banded together for mutual protection, formed mining districts for establishing legal claims to their discoveries, and generally were fairly honest amongst themselves. This was rather true in the Bradshaws in the 60s, but hardly the case in the Superstitions of the 70s/80s. There were VERY few prospectors operating in the Superstitions, and for obvious good reasons (the area is rather un-promising, geologically speaking) and in fact any prospector operating there was viewed as silly, foolhardy (for the risks from hostile Indians known to haunt the region) or crazy. Waltz was seen selling small amounts of gold in various places, and followed when he tried to return to the mine, repeatedly. A very different class of men was the case.

Instead of having a band of 'brothers', fellow miners willing to stand up for each other to protect their rights, Waltz had claim jumpers ready and willing to trail him to the mine, even to murder him in order to steal it. Thieves were also quite active. Look at how the story of Waltz changes, from his early days of visiting Florence and Adams Mill for supplies, where the old timers later stated that "it was no big secret" that Waltz had a rich mine, and no surprise here for other prospectors were also frequenting Florence, to later in Phoenix, it WAS a big secret, and not really widely known until after Waltz was dead and buried. Different people and different circumstances. Not to trash the people of Phoenix, but there were clearly some men operating in the area whom were much less than honorable.

Waltz never filed a claim on the mine. We can only speculate his reason(s), but there ARE reasons that can explain it. Waltz was seen selling gold ORE, not bars or coins, and this is what Holmes stated he found in the candle box. Gold ore has to come originally from a gold mine, period. Waltz's friends who knew him in his last days, all went hunting for the mine. Julia went by almost the same route of the single attempt by Waltz to take them to the mine on her first attempt, passing Goldfield where shortly, several good gold mines were discovered. Considering that there really are good gold mines in the area, along with the silver mines of the E and NE areas, I see no reason to dismiss Waltz's story of having a rich gold mine or to try to explain it away by speculation. <The Goldfield hills were considered part of the Superstitions in Waltz's day BTW>

Of course nothing can be said in a forum that is going to change any minds, we all have our conclusions, just thought I would point out that there is no basis ( or source) for the idea of Waltz only have a cache of gold he was making "withdrawals" from. Even if this were the case, the ore had to come from a mine, and it is hardly logical that mine would be located in the Bradshaws or California or Georgia, if you think about it, for the ore would have had to be hauled from the distant location to end up hidden in the Superstitions, which is not sensible.

So by all means, believe what you will, the mine never existed, it was only a cache of stolen gold, it was not even in Arizona, it was the Pit mine, it was found and all mined out, it was all a story made up by treasure writers to attract tourists to Apache Jct and make millions on the treasure story sales***, it was the secret cache of little brown men with poisoned arrows, etc. I hold that the simplest explanation is that Waltz did have a mine, had his own reasons for not filing a claim, only mined what gold he wanted, keeping the mine location a secret for his own reasons, and the mine remains undiscovered to this day.

I had a hunch that if I posted something it would lead to the argument it did.

Trying to trace the sources of the many (over 100) clues to the LDM is a tough one - I am pretty sure (don't have the books at elbow) that one or both statements about the military trail, can be found in the Holmes account AND in the Mitchell account. The statement about being able to see the military trail was also (allegedly) among the clues Waltz stated while having drunken revels in his earlier days.

Advocat wrote

About the ore -- when assayed, doesn't ore more or less have its own signature? I thought I had read that the matchbox gold is distinct from any known mines. Could be wrong....

We do not have the actual assay report, however from Helen Corbin we have that it was very high in gold, and rather low in silver, <as a ratio to the gold content> which is the usual for hypothermal gold deposits. This is different from most of the candidates usually proposed as the "true" source of Waltz's gold. You are correct that all gold veins (deposits, not all are veins so to speak) are distinctive, no two are exactly alike. Some will argue that gold ore varies considerably within the same vein, which is true, but the basic differences remain and I will stick by the statement. At least until someone can demonstrate that ore from one gold mine, will match exactly the ore from another gold mine located miles away. So far no one has shown this.

***I have been accused of wishing to "keep the LDM lost" for ___(fill in the blank here, getting rich on the LDM books I wrote, which to this point is zero, for the millions it generates in tourist dollars for Apache Jct businesses, which by extension must be paying me some kind of kickback, which I have never been able to cash in on, for the Dons club benefit, which likewise I have NO connection with, etc) so feel free to dismiss or ignore everything I said. I won't argue this forever.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek, even if you don't believe they exist.
Oroblanco