Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
My offer to expose Mr. Kenworthy for the charaltan that I feel he was still stands. It seems that certain forum members wish for me to prove my claims, which should be naught but a walk in the park for anyone who is even halfway grounded in Western US history. It does not have to be about any specific topic or subject either. Just a random page from one of Mr. Kenworthy's rather dillusional tomes will suffice to prove my point.

That the man could not seem to accurately name the oldest Cathedral in the Western USA, nor properly place it's position in the then village, nor even the year which it was constructed nor the original religious Order whom constructed the building should state something about the man's undying need for historical (in)accuracies.

If anyone wishes to see for themselves that what I am stating is in fact the truth, then my offer stands. It does not matter a whit whether he is dead or alive, as his written words remain behind for us to judge and judge them I shall. When someone crosses the line and starts to write false and/or inaccurate statements about my religion and what we've supposedly done, or did not do, then that person should expect others to call him on the carpet, my friend.

Someone can write that the LDM was discovered by aliens from another galaxy with Elvis Presley as their leader and Jesse James as their foreman and I could honestly care less, but when they involve the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Templars, Hospitallers, or any other Roman Catholic religious Order then I will involve myself in the discourse very quickly.

To my way of thinking, these unfounded accusations reek of anti-Catholicism and this is one prejudice which I will not allow without interjecting the facts of the subject into the discussions. Again, my offer remains open and valid to any and all who wish to participate.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[rochha]

Lamar,

I believe the Jesuits did engage in mining and left behind coded information to find some of the things ( gold, silver ) they hid. That is my OPINION which I am entitled to have, just like yours I believe it to be true

Rochha

 

[lamar]

Lamar,

I believe the Jesuits did engage in mining and left behind coded information to find some of the things ( gold, silver ) they hid. That is my OPINION which I am entitled to have, just like yours I believe it to be true

Rochha

Dear Rochha;
Absolutely awesome my friend, however I do have but a single question to ask of you. Can you happen to prove ANY of that statement which you've made previously? Granted I am NOT asking you to prove the entire statement, only a single portion of it. The choice of which portion you choose to verify is entirely yours, of course, just to make things fair, although you, me and all other interested parties already know the answer, don't we? By all means, please feel free to place your finances wherein your mouth happens to be situated.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[rochha]

Lamar,

“ By all means, please feel free to place your finances wherein your mouth happens to be situated. “

I have not seen you do that either, all you have said and done is based on your word. What you believe to be true. You have provided no proof that they have not. All you have done is say things that has come from where your mouth is situated too.

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Rochha,

Are you asking Lamar to disprove.......Legends? How would you go about finding evidence that the Jesuits did not have treasures, or mines? It would seem to me that the only way to do that, is through historical writings and documents. I know you have studied the history of the Jesuit Order in the New World, so that is the only negative evidence (for your side) you have seen. That evidence is voluminous.

Since I know you have already seen/read Lamar's (historical writings) evidence against such Jesuit treasures or activities, the next step in your debate is to produce some evidence for your own belief. At that point, we weigh the two sides. Is it your contention that your side will outweigh Lamar's? Since neither side can produce physical evidence beyond stories and writings, shouldn't we give more consideration to the weight of the collective evidence?

It's always possible that some Jesuits may have stepped over the line. If that is the case, you should present the evidence for the individual rather than paint the entire Jesuit Order with that broad brush. First give us the priest, the era, the place and the treasure. In that way, we can examine the evidence one case/point at a time.

Lamar's evidence is a positive. You are asking him to prove a negative. He is asking you to prove a positive, that Jesuit treasure/mines existed. Lets see your proof that such Jesuit treasure ever existed. At that point, we can compare the two.

Thanks, and take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

Lamar you wrote,

“ First and foremost I am committed to the facts and only the facts “

“The search for treasure first begins with the search for the FACTS “

“ By all means, do whatever you feel necessary, however that will NOT change the facts of the matter, which are these. There does NOT exist a single shred of documented proof where the King of Spain, or anyone else, outlined a system of secret codes, symbols and markings in order to facilitate the re-discovery of mines and/or minerals, should they have been abandoned. “

When someone uses the word “ fact “ as many times as he has vs. someone using the phrase “ I believe “ and the words “ possibility “ and “ opinion “ which I believe I have done. The burden of proof is on the one who uses the word “ facts “. He has shown nothing as far as facts, we are taking his word. Just as we are taking Mikes word at the information that has been entrusted to him about treasure found using coded information. This all boils down to beliefs, everybody is entitled to their own. I respect Lamars opinion, but that is all it is to me……..an opinion, certainly not gospel ( no pun intended ). If my opinion ruffles the feathers on his black robe that is something he will have to get over. If he wants to step up to the podium and let his knowledge flow from wherin his mouth is that's his right. What ever he has to say wont sway my opinion. I too have been shown things that I can not expand on.

I by no means am an expert and dont claim to be. Lamar speaks as if he can not possibly be wrong on anything. Any one reading my posts, I could be wrong. Yes he is an intelligent man, but he is NOT the final word on any of this and neither am I. Everyone is free to choose their own beliefs.

Rochha

 

[lamar]

Lamar you wrote,

“ First and foremost I am committed to the facts and only the facts “

“The search for treasure first begins with the search for the FACTS “

“ By all means, do whatever you feel necessary, however that will NOT change the facts of the matter, which are these. There does NOT exist a single shred of documented proof where the King of Spain, or anyone else, outlined a system of secret codes, symbols and markings in order to facilitate the re-discovery of mines and/or minerals, should they have been abandoned. “

When someone uses the word “ fact “ as many times as he has vs. someone using the phrase “ I believe “ and the words “ possibility “ and “ opinion “ which I believe I have done. The burden of proof is on the one who uses the word “ facts “. He has shown nothing as far as facts, we are taking his word. Just as we are taking Mikes word at the information that has been entrusted to him about treasure found using coded information. This all boils down to beliefs, everybody is entitled to their own. I respect Lamars opinion, but that is all it is to me……..an opinion, certainly not gospel ( no pun intended ). If my opinion ruffles the feathers on his black robe that is something he will have to get over. If he wants to step up to the podium and let his knowledge flow from wherin his mouth is that's his right. What ever he has to say wont sway my opinion. I too have been shown things that I can not expand on.

I by no means am an expert and dont claim to be. Lamar speaks as if he can not possibly be wrong on anything. Any one reading my posts, I could be wrong. Yes he is an intelligent man, but he is NOT the final word on any of this and neither am I. Everyone is free to choose their own beliefs.

Rochha

Dear Rochha;
I may very well be wrong and now is your chance to PROVE me wrong, my friend! For the love of God I do hope that you brought something more with you to this table than a mere OPINION! Please tell me that you have SOME historical documentation to back up your opinion that the Jesuits:
A) Illegally or illicitly mined gold and/or silver in the New World colonies and that they
B) Left behind coded evidence of their immoral activities.

Please, please please tell me that you have SOMETHING viable at your disposal, such as a previously unknown document or even the diary of a Jesuit missionary in order to substantiate your opinions. In my very humble point of view, if your opinion means enough to you for you state such on a open forum then certainly you have something, ANYTHING to back up your opinion, other than fiction, tales, myths, accustations, half-truths and outright lies in your arsenal my friend.

If you have the ability to read and comprehend, then you are very welcomed to research the troves of historical documentation for some evidence, ANY evidence that the Jesuits actually did ANY of the things which they've been accused of. It's difficult for me to PROVE that the Jesuits did not do something which they did not do in the first place, such as me being able to prove that I've never piloted a spaceship before. I've never done this nor have I claimed to have done it, therefore why do I need to PROVE that I did not do it? Also, HOW would I be able to prove that I've never done it and perhaps most important, WHY would I need to prove something so preposterous and ridiculous as this? How does one provide proof that something does not exist in the first place? The mere idea of such a notion hints of very linear and two-dimensional thinking.

Your current position is one which uses the classic argument from ignor@nce, my friend. You state that:
A) Because guilt cannot be proven, the party in question must therefore be guilty of the crime
B) There is no proof of of innocence, therefore the party in question must be guilty

The fact is that there does not exist any proof of illegal activities in regards to the Jesuits illegal mining ventures, therefore they MUST be assumed to be innocent. This very same thought process mirrors our own legal system, that being that a person is always to be presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. If you cannot provide the proof, you must therefore assume the party in question to be innocent of the charges.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Rochha;
You wrote:
I too have been shown things that I can not expand on.

Why does my mouth not fly open, all aghast at such a revelation, my friend? Perhaps because I have heard this very same claim a time or two before? It seems that NOBODY can expound upon anything related to the nefarious deeds of the Jesuits, yet they can expound just enough in order to condemn them. Perhaps you can expound just enough to answer this question for me, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie,

We are all here giving our opinions. In the process, we are all trying to show the value of those opinions. That would, of course, include you. Lamar's opinions are based on historical documents and records from the era and places in question. That information is available to everyone. He does not need to fall back on......I believe what I have been told by a reliable source, or I have the facts, but I can't reveal them at this time. He does not need to resort to, I have seen, but what I saw was not available to the general public.....etc.

As I have said before, I know you have read that history. While it is your right to reject it, you can't replace it with anything better. It remains the "Best Evidence". That written history does not stand alone in single documents or records. It is supported by many other matching accounts.

Both you and Mike can provide singular stories without any supporting corroboration or evidence. What you provide instead, can be found any day in any treasure magazine. Those accounts can't be found in any history books, because they are, mostly, modern day inventions.
There is always a perfectly good explanation of why the treasure or mine can't be produced for examination. Throughout the years it has always been......same story......different day.

On the other hand, you may both have the true story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

About the Jesuits and any wrong-doing - gee, I think there was a reason the King of Spain ordered them out, 1767, the King of France 1764 and the King of Portugal in 1759.

Not to mention the "Church" (the Pope) who ordered them disbanded forever. (Pope Clement XIV - July 1773).

You'd think they were ordered out for do-gooding, or do you think that maybe - just maybe - they had their reasons for doing so

Also, you would think that the fact that the Indians, who massacred as many Jesuits as they could find when they got tired of doing their mining is not a GLARING
example of their activities. The Indians loved the Franciscans that came after the Jesuits - specifically because they were treated well and not stuck in more slavery.

The Franciscans even wrote about how surprised they were by the Indians moderate demeanor and friendly attitudes. They were also shocked that the Pima's and the Papagos were not in the least bit indoctrinated with the "faith".

B

 

[lamar]

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
According to the historical record, you are incorrect, not about one or two points, but all of them. In fact, I've already gone over everything which you've accused the Jesuits of, many times in the past and I have neither the time nor inclination to cover that particular piece of ground yet again, however if you would be so kind as to immerse yourself in the historical facts of the matters, starting with Pope Clement XIV, whom you've stated "disbanded them forever" I believe that you will find the actual facts to be a bit different than your current perception of historical reality.

Allow me to start me you out in the right direction. First, the Society of Jesus was never *disbanded forever* the Society was supressed. Supression is completely different from complete and total disbandment, as supression restricts the activities of the Order's members and does not permit the Society to accept new noviates, or itseverely restricts the amount of noviates.

To date, the only religious Order that has been * disbanded forever* by the Vatican were the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, better known as the Knights Templars.

It would most definitely behoove you to actually research the cause and effect of the events leading up to the supression and ultimate restoration of the Society of Jesus and not rely so heavily on the accusations which others have made before you.

Also, in an tireless effort to put you onto the right track, the Papal Bull which supressed the Jesuits is titled Dominus ac Redemptor Noster and it was signed by Pope Clement XVI in Rome on July 21st, 1773.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
As living proof the Jesuits were never *disbanded forever*, we only need look at the current Society of Jesus. That they continue to exist and function is the same capacity and manner prior to their supression is proof positive that the Order was suppressed and not disbanded. If the Order had been disbanded permanently then it would have never arisen again, as was the case of the Templars. Once a decree has been signed by a Pontiff, a succeeding Pontiff cannot rescind the decree, only add to the decree or clarify a murky point.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

How many sites do you want me to post to prove you wrong?

B

 

[lamar]

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
By all means, feel free to do whatever you feel necessary.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Charlie,

We are all here giving our opinions. In the process, we are all trying to show the value of those opinions. That would, of course, include you. Lamar's opinions are based on historical documents and records from the era and places in question. That information is available to everyone. He does not need to fall back on......I believe what I have been told by a reliable source, or I have the facts, but I can't reveal them at this time. He does not need to resort to, I have seen, but what I saw was not available to the general public.....etc.

As I have said before, I know you have read that history. While it is your right to reject it, you can't replace it with anything better. It remains the "Best Evidence". That written history does not stand alone in single documents or records. It is supported by many other matching accounts.

Both you and Mike can provide singular stories without any supporting corroboration or evidence. What you provide instead, can be found any day in any treasure magazine. Those accounts can't be found in any history books, because they are, mostly, modern day inventions.

Joe,

You couldn't be more mistaken here!

First (for the umpteenth time), I give you the words of ..................

You know what? I see the road this is beginning to go down for the millionth time. Instead of hijacking the thread with the old Jesuit discussion, I will pu together a brand new thread with a lot of evidence I have amassed that shows what you have posted (Joe) is incorrect.

I recommend stopping the Jesuit discussion here, and keep an eye out for a Jesuit Treasures Thread. It will take me a while, because I have to dig through links and about 50 folders on my PC.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I will start here:

The disbandment of the Order
While the initial argument of the Jesuits to its involvement in trade was to corrupt and hamper the activities of Protestant trade, in reality it was Catholic nations who were most upset. Added to the Jesuit woes was the increasing danger to the Order from its duties as chief assassins. Every time a new King or Queen died under their watch, the noble families of Europe became more agitated.
But it was the Jesuit control of education and suppression of liberalism that was to lead to their disbandment. While Protestant nations lept ahead in commerce, industry and education, the Catholic states continued to lose control. Spain, Portugal, the states of Italy and even France had all watched with indignity while England, Germany, Russia and the other Northern European states had grown in wealth and prestige.
In 1758 the minister of Joseph I of Portugal (1750–77), the Marquis of Pombal, expelled the Jesuits from Portugal, and shipped them en masse to Civitavecchia, as a "gift for the Pope." In 1764, King Louis XV of France expelled the Jesuits.
By 1769, the movement to expel the Jesuits had grown in such momentum that there was a real risk the Papal Estates might also be taken. Pope Clement XIII called for a consistory in order to disband the Jesuits, including the preparation of a Papal Bull for the pronouncement. But on February 2, 1769 the night before the Bull to disband the Jesuits was due to be promulgated, General Lorenzo Ricci had the Pope murdered.


How convenient for the Jesuits.

His successor, Pope Clement XIV, himself trained by the Jesuits, was more strategic. In July 1773, Pope Clement XIV signed the order Dominus ac Redemptor to disband the Jesuits and their churches and assets were seized in simultaneous raids. In exchange, Pope Clement was given back Avignon and Benevento to the Papal states for "services rendered" to the Royal houses.
The suppression took General Ricci completely by surprise but before he could retaliate, he was arrested on August 17 and imprisoned at Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome. But on September 22, 1774 Ricci successfully had Pope Clement XIV assassinated at the age of 68. Ricci remained imprisoned and died there on November 24, 1775 after 15 years as General


Gee, murder again.

 

[lamar]

Dear SWR;
Source, my friend Who cares about the source when the writing is clearly anti-Catholic rhetoric and cannot be taken seriously. It's not merely funny, it's laughably so, and it was obviously written by one of those far out in left field conspiracy theorist who is long on theory and very short on facts. This sort of drivel cannot be taken seriously by ANY historian and it's disgraceful to even bother replying to such a tirade of falseness.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Note - the years of 1763 in this Illinois timeline.

Now, I realize that the "Society of Jesus" was "reincarnated" - 41 years later - but that does not erase the earlier years.

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/athome/1700/timeline/index.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945242-7,00.html

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjhist.htm - - a little over halfway down the page, the expulsion of the Jesuits


I have many, many, more.

Denying real history is a exercise in futility, Lamar. It makes one wonder what else you can close your eyes to.

B

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Do you find museums, state histories and universities unrealiable? The links I posted are from these very sources.

B

 

[lamar]

Dear SWR;
That a person would make surmations about Pope Clement XIII having been assassinated by the Jesuits is absurd when it was Clement XIII who praised the Jesuits usefulness, their dedication and devotion to the Church and their other qualities. In short Pope Clement XIII was the Jesuits most staunchy ally at the Vatican and along comes some fruticake who writes that the Superior General of the Order had the Pope murdered? And intelligent people are supposed to believe this? Incredible, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR