Both sides of Stone Maps Argument

[markmar]

Thank you Deducer and Homar for your thoughtful replies. I can't say that I can agree with your reasoning and conclusions but have other problems with the stone maps to address first.



Thanks for dropping in Starman, haven't seen you posting in quite a while now.

I will suspend disbelief in the Peralta Stones for a moment, to ask you (and all of the people who believe in the stone maps) a couple of questions, which you can answer in brief or explain in detail your reasoning, as you please.

1: What is the scale of the stone maps?

2: What direction is indicated as North on these stone maps referred to?

Thank you in advance to all whom choose to answer. These two points alone will bring an important factor to light.

Coffee?

Hi Roy

Just to keep this thread warm.
The Trail tablets together in the right order, in the field they cover about 150x110 yards. So, you can make out the scale.
Now the orientation of the Trail tablets, the dagger points almost east, just seven degrees to the south.

 

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[somehiker]

It seems to me that the two main arguments for Travis Tumlinson having carved the maps are that: 1) He did it for fun. 2) He did it to personally profit from them.

Neither can be proven.

You forgot #3) "He did it to throw anyone off guard, who might see or steal the stones.".....to quote Travis' friend Bob Bair, who only said that to Mel Brower as an after thought and in reference to the zeros on the back side of the heart stone, but not to anything else about the stones he had been shown by Travis.

oh yes there is..you just aren't in possession of that information...

Do you mean all those pages of triple-super-top secret information, what can only be deciphered with a "3X-STSI" decoder ring like you got ??

it has been proven...some people just cant bring their selves to admit it

[/QUOTE]

All that Ouija stuff just don't work for some of us Dave......
But then again....maybe Travis was into it.

 

[azdave35]

You forgot #3) "He did it to throw anyone off guard, who might see or steal the stones.".....to quote Travis' friend Bob Bair, who only said that in reference to the zeros on the back side of the heart stone, and not to anything else about the stones he had been shown by Travis.



Do you mean all those pages of triple-super-top secret information, what can only be deciphered with a "3X-STSI" decoder ring like you got ??

Ouija just don't work for some of us Dave......
But then again....maybe Travis was into it.[/QUOTE]
lol..wayne...that is bad ju-ju..your not supposed to be delving into that sort of stuff...your better off with the little orphan annie secret decoder ring...don't forget to drink your ovaltine

 

[somehiker]

Never seen ovaltine up this way Dave.
We got moosemilk.......but it don't come in a bottle......only fresh from the source.

 

[azdave35]

Never seen ovaltine up this way Dave.
We got moosemilk.......but it don't come in a bottle......only fresh from the source.

 

[somehiker]

Ha Haaa.....like I said !!

 

[releventchair]

You'll shoot yer eye out kid!

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

I didn't respond to your questions with "reasoning." I responded with facts.

As has been pointed out, the major players associated with the Stone Maps treated it as if it were authentic, including Travis Tumlinson himself. Have you read the Peck investigation letters?

There is absolutely no proof that the Stone Maps are fakes, or that Travis Tumlinson carved them.

Actually your 'facts' did not really prove anything either, because your original questions were mostly asking things we can not know - what someone knew, or believed etc. The fact that so many were convinced the Peralta stones are real does not make them real - people are too easily fooled.

We have the conclusions of Father Charles Polzer, SJ, whom examined said stones and pronounced them modern forgeries, and Desert Archaeology Inc, that also reached the same conclusions. The state of Arizona, when the legal dust up was going on concerning the stone maps, classified them as "curiosities" rather than antiquities, which also says something. Conversely, didn't Scott Wolter examine the Peralta stones and pronounce them genuine, but not necessarily maps to a gold mine?
Toss into that factoring that Travis Tumlinson definitely liked to carve stones, including the chimney of the family home.

Homar wrote

Howdy Roy,

Not all fish have scales, the same goes for maps. In fact most treasure maps don't have scale since they are not made by surveyors. The PSM's were made much like a treasure map. They also show where North is, otherwise they would not be map at all, but that's for you to figure out. Now if Travis had made them, he would have made sure that they had a proper indicator like a regular map.

Homar

I can see that there is no scale on the stone maps. I can also see at least two different pointing type indicators that might be pointing north. You are assuming that Travis would have made sure they had a proper indicator - he did not put any such indicator on the other stones he carved.

Homar also wrote

Oroblanco believes that if I were fortunate enough to find something, that I would rub his nose in it like a bad puppy. That would never happen, if it were not for naysayers, there would be no debate, nothing to come here for. I have just as much fun as you do when I come here to inject a little common sense into the saga.

You do not know what I believe or disbelieve, and please do not put words in my mouth. I said I would hope that you WOULD come back online and post proof of your having found the treasure, the "rub nose" reference was a figure of speech, as it sounds funnier than just "I told ya so."

Deducer wrote

It seems to me that the two main arguments for Travis Tumlinson having carved the maps are that: 1) He did it for fun. 2) He did it to personally profit from them.

Neither can be proven.

Well family members informed Garry Cundiff (if memory serves that is his last name) that Travis carved the stone maps. Are we now saying that Gary lied, or that the Tumlinson family members he spoke to lied?

Also you are ignoring two other possible reasons for Travis to have carved the stone maps.

1 Fraud - to get investors or bilk someone out of money (I doubt this but it is possible)

2 Pious Fraud - creating something he believed SHOULD exist. This kind of thing was very common in the Medeival age, of course mostly all religious relics but including whole books written under the name of famous Biblican patriarchs like the Testament of Abraham etc when Abraham never saw that document. People were flocking to pray to the bones of St Rosalia for many years only until it was discovered that the bones were those of a goat. A "pious fraud" doesn't necessarily mean religious, nor necessarily that it was intended to cheat money out of people, just like people are buying modern replica Viking and Roman swords - the guys making them are in effect making 'pious frauds' as there is a demand for it. Thankfully they are not pretending these modern replicas are the genuine article.

Marius wrote

Hi Roy

Just to keep this thread warm.
The Trail tablets together in the right order, in the field they cover about 150x110 yards. So, you can make out the scale.
Now the orientation of the Trail tablets, the dagger points almost east, just seven degrees to the south.

Thank you Marius for your answers. Apparently most of our friends here do not want to post an answer, perhaps thinking I am trying to lay a trap or secretly steal the info for my own use.

The questions about the scale were because so far, no two people can agree what the map scale really is. I mean the scale as you are interpreting it, just as Marius posted. The eighteen places, the dots, one might logically conclude to be a days travel apart, making the scale of the stone maps quite large indeed. Marius' scale is the smallest I have heard of concerning these stone maps.

The question about which direction is North, is also due to the fact that SO many people cannot agree on which direction is north on the stone maps. Does the dagger point north, or the arrow? Or does it point south, or west or as Marius posted, just south of east!

Anyway good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Al D]

Just one comment about C. Polzer, S.J. he had an agenda.
1. Foot operated drills existed in the late 1700’s
2. The style of the cross being 20th century is not true, at Tubac, in the museum is a cross which is the exact same style, it was professionally dated to the 1600’s also there are numerous examples of the same style cross on headstones dated mid 1800’s.
these two points alone should call Polzers conclusions into serious question.

 

[azdave35]

Just one comment about C. Polzer, S.J. he had an agenda.
1. Foot operated drills existed in the late 1700’s
2. The style of the cross being 20th century is not true, at Tubac, in the museum is a cross which is the exact same style, it was professionally dated to the 1600’s also there are numerous examples of the same style cross on headstones dated mid 1800’s.
these two points alone should call Polzers conclusions into serious question.

why would someone put that much work into carving a treasure map when you can just draw it in a few minutes?

 

[somehiker]

why would someone put that much work into carving a treasure map when you can just draw it in a few minutes?

Because such a record would last a very long time......ie: durability.
Mankind has been using stone as a medium for documentation and artistic purposes for tens of thousands of years.
If you could go back and ask them why, I suspect you would hear the same from them.

 

[somehiker]

You'll shoot yer eye out kid!

That too.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

To begin with, the TC/G stone that Travis carved, is not a treasure map that leads anywhere with a need for a direction indicator. Please show me some of the other stones that you keep saying Travis carved.

Yes I know that the "nose rub" is a figure of speech it alludes to house breaking a puppy. I never put words in your mouth, these were your own words after wishing me to be fortunate to find treasure, "and that you will come back to rub my nose in it.........it won't bother me at all." It was you who believed I would do such a thing, I made it clear that I would never do that. I wouldn't do that to anyone for that matter, much less a friend.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Because such a record would last a very long time......ie: durability.
Mankind has been using stone as a medium for documentation and artistic purposes for tens of thousands of years.
If you could go back and ask them why, I suspect you would hear the same from them.

you trying to say someone made a treasure map so someone 10.000 years later could use it to find a treasure?...people make maps to treasure or mines so THEY can relocate it (or their family)...nobody would give a rats rear if someone 200 years later finds it...and if they did make that map so their kids could find the treasure they wouldn't have made it so cryptic (unless they hated their kids lol)...if you make a map so someone else can use it you would do it so they could decipher it without driving themselves nuts ..if you guys are going to be treasure hunters you should learn to think like one

 

[Matthew Roberts]

 

[releventchair]

why would someone put that much work into carving a treasure map when you can just draw it in a few minutes?

Stone don't burn as easy as other mediums.
The original secured back home at the hacienda would be reasonably secure.
To avoid errors in hand drawing a copy , the original could be used as a source to copy by other means.
Add the convenience of materials closer to civilization (who carried rolls of parchment , and durable medium of ink ect. on treks?) and copy at leisure. Blotting up ink blots, (well on older maps/writings anyways) drying work and keeping it dry after....

Of course an original hand drawn map or design could be expected to exist before a carving. But weather, flood ,fire,insects ,mold and more take their toll on parchment and other mediums. Even acid in certain paper can affect legibility after a while. No , not always.
But a map/article of importance should be a tough one. At least one copy of it when leisure and material allows.. (?)



Beats me though beyond durability.
Here's some copying engravings using fabric..

Headstone Rubbing Techniques That Get Good Results

 

[azdave35]

Stone don't burn as easy as other mediums.
The original secured back home at the hacienda would be reasonably secure.
To avoid errors in hand drawing a copy , the original could be used as a source to copy by other means.
Add the convenience of materials closer to civilization (who carried rolls of parchment , and durable medium of ink ect. on treks?) and copy at leisure. Blotting up ink blots, (well on older maps/writings anyways) drying work and keeping it dry after....

Of course an original hand drawn map or design could be expected to exist before a carving. But weather, flood ,fire,insects ,mold and more take their toll on parchment and other mediums. Even acid in certain paper can affect legibility after a while. No , not always.
But a map/article of importance should be a tough one. At least one copy of it when leisure and material allows.. (?)


Beats me though beyond durability.
Here's some copying engravings using fabric..

Headstone Rubbing Techniques That Get Good Results

...i see your point but why carve a treasure map in stone when the average human only lived 50-60 years back then...after he is dead why would he care if the map survived?....also there are plenty of 200-300 year old maps on parchment that are still in reasonably good shape....like i said before...a man makes a map so he can find his way back....not so someone 300 years later can find his treasure...too bad he didn't have a gps back then

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco wrote:

"Thank you Marius for your answers. Apparently most of our friends here do not want to post an answer, perhaps thinking I am trying to lay a trap or secretly steal the info for my own use.

The questions about the scale were because so far, no two people can agree what the map scale really is. I mean the scale as you are interpreting it, just as Marius posted. The eighteen places, the dots, one might logically conclude to be a days travel apart, making the scale of the stone maps quite large indeed. Marius' scale is the smallest I have heard of concerning these stone maps.

The question about which direction is North, is also due to the fact that SO many people cannot agree on which direction is north on the stone maps. Does the dagger point north, or the arrow? Or does it point south, or west or as Marius posted, just south of east!"

Roy, the stone Trail maps are what they are, a description of a well designed path which leads to the treasure of the church of Holy Faith. The path starts above the mine which is depicted as the lower dot in circle in front of the Horse from the known stone tablet/map, and ends at the mine which is depicted as the upper dot in circle in front of the Horse from the same known stone map. Looking at the Horse and the mines in the stone map, the distance between the mines in regards to the Horse size, just put a little faith in my statement about the scale of the Trail map in the field. The Horse I know about is in the center and has about the half size of the mountainside on which it's located.
There are another two paper maps which show another treasure vaults from the same area, but none of them shows directly the exact location of the treasure of Santa Fe. Only one of those two paper maps shows the spot of the treasure of Santa Fe using a specific treasure code which has to be decrypted in regards to " see " the spot on the map. The same map use also a different treasure code for the treasure vault which is also depicted in the Sleeping Lady Squaw map as the almost middle asterisk close to the " canyon " word. The asterisk right from the " stone " from the Sleeping Lady map , is the same mine/treasure vault with the lower dot in circle in front of the Horse.
So, the Trail stone map is the only map which shows directly how the get to the mine which holds the treasure of Santa Fe.

 

[releventchair]

...i see your point but why carve a treasure map in stone when the average human only lived 50-60 years back then...after he is dead why would he care if the map survived?....also there are plenty of 200-300 year old maps on parchment that are still in reasonably good shape....like i said before...a man makes a map so he can find his way back....not so someone 300 years later can find his treasure...too bad he didn't have a gps back then

There's tons of speculation for sure.

For efficiency ,experience would matter. Hinting that an individual tasked with any degree of talent in such a map would be specialized. A luxury when water groceries and recompense were involved.

The weight of stone troubles me most. A man or burro with ore a priority wouldn't appreciate the extra ballast.
So why a stone map would be on an unsettled/remote site except at a station to make copies from?
Competition would have to be low risk. Or ,the map be a decoy.

There is the ambush ,or out of water , and host of scenarios where a stone map could be cast off. Hiding it well or breaking it into pieces and scattering comes to mind first . But.....But ,but. I'd still rather see the carving done at "home". (Travis and I may have agreed on that. If little else.)

Knowing who a /the mine belonged to , (assuming a mine is/was involved) matters.
Did workers get sent to a known waypoint and follow line of sight maps from there?
Did the owner ever return to the mine? If not just a sponsor requiring records and never having been there , but wanting the ability to know how to.

If a member of a previous visit attended each additional visit a map could be cruder.
Insurance wants a durable record somewhere though. 50-60 years of lifespan is still a gamble where hostiles or ne'r do wells are part of living.

I'm not up to speed ,loss of memory don't help ; but there were times when annual visits were stalled in some areas.
Did everyone know when a return was going to be possible?
If it seemed no time soon , a future generation might have a shot at it. If it knew where a certain stone was buried.
No sense leaving a mine map where some one could steal it. (Unless a decoy...)

 

[Ponchosportal]

why would someone put that much work into carving a treasure map when you can just draw it in a few minutes?

Why would someone put that much work into carving the rocks that weren't a treasure?