Button (die ) Found

[RELICDUDE07]

I went out today for a little hunt and found something very cool..I can see a small date at the bottom 1773 and some inlay around the edge .I think it was for making coins or buttons its solid brass . I know you can not make out the date very well, im going to try and take some more pics.and clean it some how? What is it called so i can look for some online?... Thanks/ relicdude

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Don..Do the ones in the rev.war book have any other marks on them around the die that you can see?This one is so dirty ,i think there maybe marks under all the crusty stuff aswell /but i soaked it and boiled the peroxide /and tried a tooth brush . It did nothing to the crust on the brass

 

[ScubaFinder]

Relic,

If you can hold off for a bit, I'll be coming through your town in a week or so, and even staying in Tallahassee one night for a meeting with the guys from the Board of Historical Resources. I bet I could talk Jamie into cleaning it for you professionally at the state preservation lab, but if not, I could take it back to the museum in Sebastian and do it there. Brass isn't too difficult, but it needs to be done right the first time.

Congrats, it's most certainly a half of a button die, and a unique find as well. The other part would probably look like a chisel with a reverse image of the button the bottom. I'll PM you some instructions for how I would clean it, and you can try that if your adventurous. Either way, I plan to see you when I'm in the area on my way back from Texas. I'm going to a KILLER location Friday (old indian trading post / ghost town with several cellar pits and foundations...and a bottle dump too!).

Jason

 

[Quix Ten]

ScubaFinder, you sound like you've had experience with button dies before, so maybe you can help me understand this. If the concave die is right-facing as this one appears to be, how was it used? If the chisel-looking portion of it (what I'd normally refer to as a striker) is reversed, and you put a piece of metal in between the two and hammer the striker, what you will end up with is a domed piece of metal where the writing faces correctly if you are looking inside the dome, which is exactly backwards from how a normal domed button looks.

What am I missing here? Is there another step in the process that reverses the dome? Maybe this piece isn't actually concave per se... the design is obviously sunken, but I think maybe I've gotten hung up on thinking that there should be an indention roughly the same shape as the button that was pictured, but I think now it's pretty obvious that this die does not go with the button pictured above. If this is designed for making flat buttons it all makes more sense. This could just be the right-facing piece.

There are other issues of registration (i.e., how do you make sure that the striker and the die line up exactly) but let's put those aside for now. Do you know if these dies were used in some sort of press or machine? That would seem most likely since hand-striking would be so variable.

What a cool relic! I always love finding things that need some research and investigation, and this definitely qualifies. Relic, get back out there and find the other half!

 

[Don in SJ]

Don..Do the ones in the rev.war book have any other marks on them around the die that you can see?This one is so dirty ,i think there maybe marks under all the crusty stuff aswell /but i soaked it and boiled the peroxide /and tried a tooth brush . It did nothing to the crust on the brass

I will be out today, but I do know the ones in the book are rather crude also, but all their designs are in Reverse. If no one else posts any photos I will try and get some of them when I return.

Don

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Quix ten----On the concave part, i think the buttons made with this were all (flat buttons )thats not the button my friend found..But looks alot like it , his is flat..Although i was thinking , if you could lay it in the backside of this thing and strike it again , with a round type punch ,it could give it some shape (concave).Its about the exact size of the button that would come from this, on the round back side, part .. Thanks jason ,and i will wait for you...And --Don, i would love to see some pics.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I'm by no means an expert in button dies, but I have seen and studied a number of coin dies and screw presses. From the pics, this artifact really appears to be a convex mold to me...but I won't know until I see it, or Relic takes a nice 45 degree pic for us. Obviously the mold chamber is generally concave, but I really think when cleaned you will see that the button portion is actually slightly convex. Oxidation tends to collect in the corners, making it appear and feel concave.

Relic, I'm bringing some of my previous electrolytic reduction equipment with me back to Florida, and I'll have everything we need to clean it there except for Sodium Carbonate (soda ash or washing soda). If you could, check the laundry detergent section next time you're at the grocery store and see if you can find some washing soda, and I'll check here also. Would you mind telling me how far from seawater you found it in general terms? I just need to know what we are dealing with. Regardless, brass is pretty quick to clean up...meanwhile, go find the other piece. LOL

Jason

 

[Don in SJ]

A few individual button dies and one 60th button

Here are a few die photos and one photo of a similar 60th button from two different reference books.
Don

 

[Don in SJ]

If you go to this post of mine from late last year you can see how well Silly Putty worked for me on my unknown iron mold I found. The detail is rather clear, and photos do last a long time.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,58354.0.html

Don

 

[xlthunter]

Just wondering , Do you think it might just be a lead slug? Just a thought.
xlthunter

 

[Skrimpy]

I've been thinking about this one for a while...I think the date would be reversed too so you wouldn't read 1773 but 3771 but the numbers would be facing the other way. It undoubtibly is some kind of mold or die, especially with the depression having a pattern in it but it really isn't clear what that pattern is. Get the silly putty or the playdough and press it in there. Until you do that, nobody will be sure what it is.

Don,
Looked at your putter head again and after thinking about this one I really think it is some kind of rivot header. The fact that the thing is bent actually makes sense to me. If you put the header down on a piece of wood/metal/leather, or whatever you were rivoting, you wouldn't want anything touching the surface of the material you were putting the rivot in, because when you hit it the mold would mark up the surface of the material you were rivoting. So, in essence the curve would surve the purpose of keeping the hammer blows from hitting anything but the rivot head. Also, each time you used it the thing would bend even more, so at some point it would become too warped to use and have to be thrown away.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Thank you , Don for the pics.. Jason----- Im going to wait and see how it turns out when me and you clean it.. The date i think i can make out is not in the die itself ,but on the outer edge of the brass piece..And im sure its not just a chunk of lead ,it is a solid brass button die Jason about 50 yards from the water... The sand is more black ,then white bch. sand..I went back and found some more , but I dont think i want to post them, its just to hard to explain to everyone.....

 

[Colonial Zoyboy]

I love the 1774 coin.

Bone Dry Detecting...zoyster

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Well thanks Zoyster..It was found close by ,and in pretty good shape for dug..It looks alot better then the others i have found like it.. ..Jason /the dirt is black like coffee..Maybe this will help..

 

[ScubaFinder]

Yep, it helps a lot, I'm betting we have some absorbed salt to deal with in addition to the oxidation. Think about what patina you want to return it to also. We can take it all the way back to shiny brass (not my preferred choice) or back to a "used" look as it probably looked during its useful life. There are different ways to seal it after cleaning to preserve it indefinitely, I think I have all of the materials for that with me. Should be a fun one!

Jason

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Cool ,i dont want it to shiny 8) But i think it has more marks around it under all the crust..I was thinking you maybe right already about the convex part..If it has more marks around the edge of it ...It maybe for something even larger like a belt buckle, im not sure but i did clean it enough to see the middle part good ..Its a english die for something