CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[Cubfan64]

Oh,well ... DLTDHYITAOTWO

Hmmm - this is as bad as solving the Stone Maps Give me a few minutes to try to figure this one out.

Ahhh - got it! My sentiments exactly! I would only add the phrase "Please Don't Feed the Trolls"

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hmmm - this is as bad as solving the Stone Maps Give me a few minutes to try to figure this one out.

Ahhh - got it! My sentiments exactly! I would only add the phrase "Please Don't Feed the Trolls"

I will add a variant - DLTDHYWGSY!

Roadrunner - I would suggest reading some of the other versions, I think you will find that there is a common thread running through all. Bicknell's two early articles, Mitchell's article, Ely's book, even Barry Storm's first book for starters. The trouble starts to snowball as we get farther from 1891, but some of the modern books are good as well. However as you said, it is too thin for some people.

Springfield, I have to respectfully disagree, we see things very differently. I do not agree that it is necessary for ALL the clues to be correct at all, if only one were correct, and you found the mine by that assistance, it served the purpose. I think it is a mistake to try to stick to a full set of clues and match up a spot to them, this has been tried repeatedly and resulted in something like forty empty holes in the Superstitions by earlier Dutch hunters, none of which produced gold. However I do not think it is necessary to start with clues at all, considering that the mine had to be found in the first place, it should be possible to find it without any clues at all. To approach this as you seem to propose is pretty well self-defeating, convincing yourself that you have practically no chance and would be wasting your time before even starting. Self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak. No pessimist ever found a lost mine.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[chlsbrns]

Everything about Waltz and the cast of characters is bogus. It's just a story!

Waltz grave stone says the lost dutchman even though the term the lost dutchman wasn't coined until at least a year after his death. After Julia returned (if she even went looking for a mine). I wonder if his grave is even real? http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee327/ozarker2/Waltz/PDH.png

Waltz with Pneumonia & on his death bed could talk? If you can't breathe you can't talk. Minutes before his death he can talk? He gives directions to the mine to two guys that Julia pulled off the street while she went for a doctor?

He doesn't give Julia directions but gives her a map? Julia didn't send the 2 guys to get a Doctor instead she had them go in her home?

Julia had a bakery and ice cream parlor in Phoenix? Her name nor her bakery/ice cream parlor is listed in the directory that you can find at the open library.
(see below) http://www.desertusa.com/mb3-photos2/Juliasept1892.jpg

The manifest says that in 1839 he was 28. (born 1808)
The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz: A Pioneer History ... - Helen Corbin - Google Books

A census in 1880 says that he was 70 & was a farmer.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SgdzKIc9G...880UnitedStatesFederalCensusForJacobWaltz.jpg

The numerous mining claims on the internet are totally bogus as they do not come close to complying with the mining claim laws at the time. (Laws are at Open library on the net)

I don't consider any of the above proof! If you want proof search the Open Library for: Arizona Territory... and click ebook. The proof is there in legal docs!

The mining claim laws will also be shown.

 

[Springfield]

... Springfield, I have to respectfully disagree, we see things very differently. I do not agree that it is necessary for ALL the clues to be correct at all, if only one were correct, and you found the mine by that assistance, it served the purpose. I think it is a mistake to try to stick to a full set of clues and match up a spot to them, this has been tried repeatedly and resulted in something like forty empty holes in the Superstitions by earlier Dutch hunters, none of which produced gold. However I do not think it is necessary to start with clues at all, considering that the mine had to be found in the first place, it should be possible to find it without any clues at all. To approach this as you seem to propose is pretty well self-defeating, convincing yourself that you have practically no chance and would be wasting your time before even starting. Self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak. No pessimist ever found a lost mine.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

You make some interesting points Oro. However, since apparently no single defining clue was provided for the LDM, the 'single clue' proposition is moot in this case. If Waltz had provided a set of GPS coordinates, for example, the game would have been over quickly. But, he didn't - in fact, we really don't know for certain what he provided.

The forty empty holes you refer to only supports my primary argument.

If a mine was found in the first place, with no clues - by Waltz, Mexicans or whomever - then considering the effort that has been put out the past 120 years, it's curious it hasn't been found since. Obviously, Waltz's statement, "No miner will ever find my mine," - one that many have put credence in - then seems questionable, or at least in odds with your theory.

I would use the term 'skeptic', not 'pessimist', and I would add that a true lost mine will only be found by a skeptic.

 

[roadrunner]

(No miner will ever find my mine ) might be true then.
That is why it has not been found. I said before that is or might be because it was a joke meaning miners don't look for mines, they look for float, or minerals.
They build or make a mine after they have found the minerals. So,maybe not be found by panning,ect. Because there is no float.
So,how would some one find minerals, a mineralized section of land.
Maybe you would have to use a chemical kit, or chemicals.
Or,like Oro has said before, look for fault lines or ground that has been uplifted or torn apart by forces. And of course quartz, ect.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos - this is a long reply, so I ask your indulgence, thank you in advance;

Springfield wrote

You make some interesting points Oro. However, since apparently no single defining clue was provided for the LDM, the 'single clue' proposition is moot in this case. If Waltz had provided a set of GPS coordinates, for example, the game would have been over quickly. But, he didn't - in fact, we really don't know for certain what he provided.

Considering that the mine has not been found, all of the clues are "in play" and all are also suspect; one can only use them as guidelines or helpers, in my opinion, and really we can only compare what clues will fit after the mine has been found.

Springfield also wrote

The forty empty holes you refer to only supports my primary argument.

I must respectfully disagree again, that the forty empty holes only reinforces that the clues alone will never be enough to find the mine. It does not prove the clues are false or entirely useless. Almost all of these holes were dug by treasure hunters with no idea of what a gold mine or vein might look like too, they simply followed out a set of clues and dug there.

Springfield also wrote

If a mine was found in the first place, with no clues - by Waltz, Mexicans or whomever - then considering the effort that has been put out the past 120 years, it's curious it hasn't been found since. Obviously, Waltz's statement, "No miner will ever find my mine," - one that many have put credence in - then seems questionable, or at least in odds with your theory.

We don't know what was really meant by that statement, the implication I get is that it is in an unlikely place. Most miners will not waste their time looking in ground that is not clearly showing signs of being mineralized. The mine had to be found by someone in the first place, someone had to discover it - which I believe proves that it can be found by prospecting methods. It is also possible that Waltz said this in bravado, to try to discourage other prospectors from looking, rather than because it was so utterly barren of any mineral evidence.

Springfield also wrote

I would use the term 'skeptic', not 'pessimist', and I would add that a true lost mine will only be found by a skeptic.

Have to respectfully disagree again - a skeptic won't even look, for they don't believe there is anything to it to start with. How could someone who won't look, ever find it?

Roadrunner wrote

So,how would some one find minerals, a mineralized section of land.
Maybe you would have to use a chemical kit, or chemicals.

The geochemical method may well be the most promising, and least utilized; it is something that Waltz could not have even dreamt of for it had not been invented in his day.

Roadrunner you have hit upon another of the points that helped convince me that the LDM does exist - for there are indeed a number of minerilzed areas in the Superstitions mountains, including within the Wilderness Area, though these areas should not have been included. The fact that you can pan black sands in many of the canyons is one indicator - you can find evidence of extensive hydrothermal activity from well west of Peters mesa to Horse camp and well south. Other hydrothermal areas are on the southern edge of the Wilderness Area, got my first look at some of that just a couple years ago; namely chalcedony and float quartz. This hydrothermal activity would be the very kind of thing that could have created a rich vein of gold, and perhaps several of them in such an extensive area. In fact there is gold within the Wilderness Area too - in Fish creek for example or Tortilla creek and you can pan colors of gold in a number of canyons besides these. So there is good reason to believe that one or several rich veins of gold exist in the Superstition mountains. Also, during the mineral survey studies, one test (we have gone over this before) called the Mercury Vapor test, showed positive indications of a large and rich gold deposit in the Superstitions, but possibly deeply buried.

Chlsbrns wrote

<snip>

- no, on second thought not going to bother, just thought the "I'm done here" by Chlsbrns was the end of the verbal assault. Seems that statement was premature.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

I appreciate your discussions Oro because you present a clear picture to support your beliefs.

This discussion has gone full circle and is looping. My position re the LDM has always been that I have not seen a solid enough foundation from which I would commit significant resources on a ground search (time, money) looking for it. That's all. To me, it's like watching a Hollywood movie based on some true event. My interest would be to discover the true event, which, I suspect is not the same as the popular legend.

By the way, your statement, "... a skeptic won't even look, for they don't believe there is anything to it to start with," needs a bit of correction. I like to say that a true skeptic accepts that anything is possible but requires allegations to be supported by verifiable evidence. The classic Greeks of course believed that nothing was true, but I'm not in their camp (yet). When I see evidence I can accept, then I'm likely to become a 'believer.' Hearsay is not evidence until it can be verified.

 

[chlsbrns]

So many conflicting stories! I wonder why no one wants facts? I was going to post news clips of the LDM being found but there are way to many.

 

[vor]

Chlsbrns
You can't win this battle. There is a whole culture as well as an industry that thrives based on the legend. I think everyone knows that it is fiction but use it as a hobby and their way to communicate with others that they normally wouldn't meet.
Then there are the few that just refuse to accept what they know is the truth.
But its a good story.
V

 

[markmar]

To all

I believe the region of LDM was discovered with panning by the Peraltas . But after , they built a dam ( the cow barn clue ) to stop the gold of from the mine and from the uncovered vein at the bottom of the canyon to tumble down . Maybe for this Waltz had needed a dry washer and for this he said how " no miner will find my mine " .

 

[Somero]

Just to throw some speculation in, I consider myself an optimistic skeptic if that makes sense. While there is no definitive evidence that we can all agree on as far as interpretation, IMO there is enough circumstantial evidence to conclude there are facts buried in the stories.

Lets try this route of speculation, we know Waltz was in California working as a miner, unfortunately we do not know who he was acquainted with or working with. So it is highly possible that he was working with and perhaps even befriended folks in the Hispanic community. I’ll even go so far as to speculate that he may have even gained insight into the Hispanic history of mining in the Southwest and heard some stories of mines in Arizona and the way they could possibly be located.

Since he was getting along in years Waltz may have decided to settle down with what he had earned while in the area North of Phoenix. A nice little property and home, some farming for food and a little income. Pretty sweet retirement. He may have possibly heard rumor of silver or gold East of Phoenix and decided to do a little prospecting during the cooler months, nothing wrong with a little extra money for a rainy day.

Remember this is speculation, with what he could have learned about mining by Hispanics in the region he may have had an upper hand in locating old digs, combined with the tried and true methods of locating possible locations to find it. Now keep in mind Waltz is not that young, so climbing a rock wall may not have been a good idea, so it may have been easier to find a slope to a higher location on a mountain, then work down and around to a location that might be difficult to access. Plenty of locations in the Superstitions that would match.

Now I’m no hard rock mining expert, but I would think such an activity would make noise, and I would think Waltz was using bars and hammers in such a small opening. As many of us know, it tends to be fairly quite out there so a hammer ringing could be heard from a fair distance. So he must have been making short trips, still have that farm to tend, and the less time in the mine the less likely someone would find him. One could also conclude a side canyon where his activities would not be easily discovered, but high enough that he could view the surrounding area.

So in my skeptical optimism, it is not out of the realm of possibilities and if any of the information is valid, no matter how you calculate it, there could be a chance of locating it. So, skeptical of the stories, optimistic that there is some truth in it somewhere. Granted this is all just speculation, I could come up with more possibilities about what Waltz may have done that we may never know but the basic story that we have is the only real circumstantial evidence we have to build off of, each according to their own experiences.

I think that may have been a nickles worth.

 

[chlsbrns]

Chlsbrns
You can't win this battle. There is a whole culture as well as an industry that thrives based on the legend. I think everyone knows that it is fiction but use it as a hobby and their way to communicate with others that they normally wouldn't meet.
Then there are the few that just refuse to accept what they know is the truth.
But its a good story.
V

One thing I noticed from reading the late 1800's to early 1900's news is that there is never any mention of a match box and no mention of any of the current list of clues. In fact the old news articles contradict the modern day story. It's fairly obvious from the news articles that I posted that they don't even know what State the so called lost mine is supposed to be in.

One article says that he died or was killed near the vulture mine. That makes sense being that he stole robbed people from the vulture or maybe it wasn't him it was someone that he killed?

Another calls the LDM story pathetic. In another they are solders. In another Waltz is a fugitive. Another that he babbled about gold as he died. Another that he said nothing about gold or mines while dying. The one thing that stands out Is that none of the articles that were written close to his time on the earth match what are being called clues in our time. The closer to the event the more accurate. That's not speculation it's a fact!

 

[vor]

That's not speculation it's a fact!

Sometimes facts can get in the way of a good story.

Case in point: Somero's speculative story above. I don't even think that the quote below is even a "fact".

we know Waltz was in California working as a miner

I think it was on the dusa forum once where there was a thread to list facts related to the LDM. There was hardly one that was a real fact. Maybe questionable evidence, but not a fact.
V

 

[markmar]

Somero

If you are not stuck on the fence , jump down and leave your treasure hunter spirit to leads you to the mine . Don't forget how the Luck helps the brave . Brave , not impulsive .

 

[Somero]

Vor

I agree, there are those that are so involved in looking for the LDM that they loose sight of what is important around them. I think most “Dutch Hunters” look at is as a mystery to solve, a fun hobby. For me I have other interests in the Superstitions, been in love with those mountains for years, so if I’m going to be out there, may as well understand the history of the region and have some fun, beats the heck out of sitting and reading a bunch of old unverifiable newspapers.

 

[Cubfan64]

That makes sense being that he stole robbed people from the vulture

And the documented source for this opinion stated as fact is... ?

 

[sgtfda]

Any opinion on Helen Corbin's book

The curse of the Dutchmans gold

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Chisbrns,

I thought you were moving to another forum at least that is what you said.

You have already made it clear you don't believe in the LDM, so please move on to another thread you do believe in.

Your continued posting on this thread challenging those who do believe will be considered harressment.



We will NOT go quietly into the night!

 

[cactusjumper]

Any opinion on Helen Corbin's book

The curse of the Dutchmans gold

Frank,

Who are you asking?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning TH, Join me in a cuppa?? I gave you a 'like', earned as usual. But i also believe that all posts, including mine, should be subject to criticism and discussion. All posters and readers have the means at their fingertips to eliminate any posts or posters whom they violently disagree with. by simply pushing the 'ignore' key.

Profanity, degradation, or insulting of a fellow poster etc should not be allowed, except in an obvious intent to simply joke with each other..

Don Jose de la Mancha