CODEBREAKER COMMENTS ABOUT BEALE CIPHERS

[Old Silver]

First of all, I am no stranger to genealogy....or the multitudes of inaccuracies, varied determinations, and frequent speculations that often exist. Genealogy is far from a perfect world and just as we have seen in the Beale mystery it too has failed to produce one single directly connecting piece of evidence to the Beale mystery. So here again we have yet another avenue that has been traveled time and time again with no significant discovery. Genealogy research isn't magic and it can't turn up anything that can't be found by other processes because just like these other process it too survives on the same "recorded physical histories".

Genealogy has shown us several Thomas Beale's of the age to have possibly been our man. And if you know genealogy as well as you say, then you know that the absence of a middle initial in the records does not mean the absence of an actual middle name for that person. That doesn't make the Beale story true, but it is pretty good reason to believe in the existence of the man.

 

[bigscoop]

Genealogy has shown us several Thomas Beale's of the age to have possibly been our man. And if you know genealogy as well as you say, then you know that the absence of a middle initial in the records does not mean the absence of an actual middle name for that person. That doesn't make the Beale story true, but it is pretty good reason to believe in the existence of the man.

.....not at all true. The vast majority of these Thomas Beale/Beall, etc., have been known about long before modern day genealogy accesses, they were just discovered by those who traveled the old school routes of actual travel and physical searches. And I can find absolutely nothing that has yet to presented to give anyone good/sound reason to believe in the existence of a/the man who to date nobody has ever been able to find any credible confirmation. What you are proposing is that any character should be considered to be real even when they can't be confirmed to exist and there is absolutely not one iota of credible evidence of them, anywhere. If what you are proposing is accurate then bigfoot and mermaids and a host of other unconfirmed characters likewise must exist just because someone says so. Me, I require more then that.

 

[Old Silver]

.....not at all true. The vast majority of these Thomas Beale/Beall, etc., have been known about long before modern day genealogy accesses, they were just discovered by those who traveled the old school routes of actual travel and physical searches. And I can find absolutely nothing that has yet to presented to give anyone good/sound reason to believe in the existence of a/the man who to date nobody has ever been able to find any credible confirmation. What you are proposing is that any character should be considered to be real even when they can't be confirmed to exist and there is absolutely not one iota of credible evidence of them, anywhere. If what you are proposing is accurate then bigfoot and mermaids and a host of other unconfirmed characters likewise must exist just because someone says so. Me, I require more then that.

Of course they were known, and that's because they existed. And I'm only referring here to the exact spelling of Thomas Beale. So if you think it's not true what I said about the initial, go prove it to yourself. The man existed, not just because we have his name, but also because many were in Lynchburg who would have known if he hadn't existed. I've yet to see that much common sense evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. That doesn't mean I believe in the story, but I do believe in the existence of the characters.

 

[ECS]

Yes, as I would fully expect the competing newspaper to do as well if they thought the story was credible enough. Newspapers survive on public interest pieces and a huge treasure buried in someone's back yard would certainly present a huge public interest piece worth digging into and following up on. And then there is the general public, why is there no evidence of any local buzz on the topic? Just seems to me that the ads and the narration got a rather chilly reception on the local and regional level.

Well it did receive a "chilly reception" from the descendants of Witcher, Coles, and Clay who objected to their forebears being mentioned and used in the dime novel pamphlet.
It is interesting to note that the Beale Papers were withdrawn from sale and the remaining copies "destroyed in a fire".
With John William Sherman's access to the print shop, it would have been easy to print a second edition with those names removed but that never happened. Why?
Then the whole matter was forgotten until N H Hazelwood got Clayton Hart involved with making copies of ciphers.

 

[Old Silver]

Nothing has been SHOWN, only claimed. This is the very reason many people don't believe in the Beale story, so how can it be different for this? And the ad being withdrawn and not published again is good reason why no one, other than a few people in Lynchburg, saw the story. That's a pretty good indication of why we don't have people coming forth making claims.

 

[franklin]

I have always believed that if the story was real, then the clue to the location cipher would be in the cipher of the members of the party. I have not heard of anyone trying to break the cipher of the names of the members. If I was doing it, that would be the key to the last cipher for the location of the cache. But that's just me.

The pamphlet I published in 1990 had C1, C2 and C3 deciphered. C3 had all 31 names including Thomas Beale. It did not have his name spelled out it only said, "I want my share to go to -------- --------- on the Lesley Homestead in Manassas." I am sorry I can not remember the name after 26 years but someone probably has a copy like Rebel KGC. Kindly post if you have it, if not I will look it up and post it. The pamphlet was copyrighted in 1990 and there is a copy at the Library of Congress. I believe you have to send them three copies today.

 

[ECS]

Nothing has been SHOWN, only claimed. This is the very reason many people don't believe in the Beale story, so how can it be different for this? And the ad being withdrawn and not published again is good reason why no one, other than a few people in Lynchburg, saw the story. That's a pretty good indication of why we don't have people coming forth making claims.

The add for the Beale Papers ran for several weeks in the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN (Franklin or Bigscoop have that information), and Max Guggenheimer (the one mentioned in the Beale story) sold copies at his Lynchburg store.
The Roanoke News ran a book review of the Beale Papers, with Ward (name spelled wrong) as author.
So, yes, in 1885, the Beale Papers had exposure to the buying public of that area of Virginia.
Enough so, that it drew the attention of the Witcher, Clay, and Coles families.
* Received a PM that informed me that the adds ran for 36 weeks- 9 months of constant exposure to the buying public of Bedford and Botetourt counties.

 

[Old Silver]

The add for the Beale Papers ran for several weeks in the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN (Franklin or Bigscoop have that information), and Max Guggenheimer (the one mentioned in the Beale story) sold copies at his Lynchburg store.
The Roanoke News ran a book review of the Beale Papers, with Ward (name spelled wrong) as author.
So, yes, in 1885, the Beale Papers had exposure to the buying public of that area of Virginia.
Enough so, that it drew the attention of the Witcher, Clay, and Coles families.

Yes, the LYNCHBURG public, but not the RICHMOND public. How many people in Richmond do you suppose would have subscribed to the small town paper of Lynchburg? It was Richmond where the two members of Beale's party was from. As for the others, who knows, they could have been from anywhere. As for the families of Witcher, Clay, and Coles, again, nothing has been SHOWN, only claimed.

 

[franklin]

Yes, the LYNCHBURG public, but not the RICHMOND public. How many people in Richmond do you suppose would have subscribed to the small town paper of Lynchburg? It was Richmond where the two members of Beale's party was from. As for the others, who knows, they could have been from anywhere. As for the families of Witcher, Clay, and Coles, again, nothing has been SHOWN, only claimed.

I deciphered the names from C3, the two men lived near Richmond but not in Richmond. They lived at Fort Charles City.

 

[Old Silver]

I deciphered the names from C3, the two men lived near Richmond but not in Richmond. They lived at Fort Charles City.

The story actually says NEAR Richmond. I just don't think there would have been a lot of people in, or near, Richmond who subscribed to a small town newspaper. Richmond was a big town for that time, whereas Lynchburg was a small town, roughly 1/4 the size of Richmond.

 

[franklin]

You would be surprised how many families buy newspaper from local home towns just to keep up with what is happening back at home. Where the two men lived has nothing to do with whether there was a newspaper there from Lynchburg or not?

 

[Old Silver]

You would be surprised how many families buy newspaper from local home towns just to keep up with what is happening back at home. Where the two men lived has nothing to do with whether there was a newspaper there from Lynchburg or not?

So how many living in Richmond at that time was from Lynchburg? Yes, it matters, if theyt had no ties to Lynchburg? Did they?

 

[ECS]

...and if the treasure story was true, as Bigscoop mentioned, families talk and would want to claim their piece of the action.

 

[ECS]

So how many living in Richmond at that time was from Lynchburg? Yes, it matters, if theyt had no ties to Lynchburg? Did they?

Well there was the Alderman from Jackson Ward, Richmond, Thomas J Beale.

 

[Old Silver]

...and if the treasure story was true, as Bigscoop mentioned, families talk and would want to claim their piece of the action.

What action? If they didn't know of the story, they wouldn't know of any action to be had.

 

[Old Silver]

Well there was the Alderman from Jackson Ward, Richmond, Thomas J Beale.

And he was from Lynchburg?

 

[tad10]

The plain truth of the situation is this, we are no further ahead in the mystery then those folks who took up the chase from day one.

Not at all. We (in the royal sense) are much further along than that. But yes, I stand corrected, I should have written "the treasure it hides, if it is not just a very complex hoax, is not the treasure described in the 'deciphered" Cipher Two text ."

 

[tad10]

The pamphlet I published in 1990 had C1, C2 and C3 deciphered. C3 had all 31 names including Thomas Beale. It did not have his name spelled out it only said, "I want my share to go to -------- --------- on the Lesley Homestead in Manassas." I am sorry I can not remember the name after 26 years but someone probably has a copy like Rebel KGC. Kindly post if you have it, if not I will look it up and post it. The pamphlet was copyrighted in 1990 and there is a copy at the Library of Congress. I believe you have to send them three copies today.

Did your deciphered C3 mention Robert Morriss and if so what did it say?

 

[legrand]

I agree Tad10. The treasure is not that described in the story of The Beale Papers. This is why we're lead away from the Virginia area in ERE FEN DUE RED KNEE and the plain text from the letter frequency decipherment of Code 1 is strange diction. Yet, 20102 is quite clear of his position in [ Home ]. Don't you see, there is much more than what the story tries to convince us that it is. Much more.

 

[tad10]

Don't you see, there is much more that what the story tries to convince us that it is. Much more.

I would say it is highly doubtful, but not impossible for the Beale to concern something hidden in Virginia. It is not, however, the first place I would look. If it is in Virginia, it is much more than 4 miles distant from the Buford tavern.

Since you seem like a nice guy I'm going to let you in on a little secret, letter frequency distribution is not going to help you with the Beale, nor will any other type of ordinary computer analysis. This is because the Beale is not just encoded by number, it is also encoded by position. At least four different plaintexts being used to encode the Beale in a rotating pattern which means that any particular number can have up to four different values (and let me emphasize the phrase "at least")

But wait, there's more, the above would be probably still be a breeze to the NSA if the Beale was one-to-one but while a number can represent just one letter, it can also represent two letters and in rare cases three or four.

So the Beale Cipher really is your basic cryptologists nightmare.

indeed one reason (but not the only reason) I continue to pursue the Beale is the sheer complexity of the encoding. An awful lot of work was put into this, and many candles were burnt to the ground in 1885 for the Beale to be a hoax or Masonic allegory.