Continuum

[azdave35]

Thanks Frank. Doesn't phase me a bit though. I have been here for 13 years as Gollum (and four or five before that with my real name), and in that time I have seen a million Markmars. They don't post information seeking honest appraisals from other members. They only want to have someone back up and agree with their opinions. Anyone that disagrees is somehow "against them" or is somehow "attacking them". At that point, they lay on the insults until you call them out as internet tough-guy nothings. HAHAHA As everyone here that has ever known me knows, I am willing to give anyone that insults me the opportunity to repeat those insults to my face. They never do. But yes, I'm sure he will be the one to find the LDM via Google Earth. Just like BB found the LDM only to discover it was just Chuck Crawford's old diggings. At least I give BB credit for having the guts to show up at a Rendezvous and go to his site. Most people who have "found" the LDM are content to sit on their couch and argue with anyone who doesn't fall for their BS

Google earth can be a helpful tool it has been to us. But until you put rubber to the pavement, all you have is a theory, and I can say that with first hand the knowledge, as can anyone who has actually, been to the place. It amazing me how many people think they have discovered it with GE, and never step foot in the place. Even with boots on the ground, and even in the right place, the terrain is so severe, it is not impossible, to put pieces together, but it very difficult. Right, are guys are training with professional climbers, who are going with us so we can get to places. Maybe like us GE sometimes can help but in no way can anyone with just Google Earth be sure of anything, and if they are, they are not credible, that may be blunt, but that is the hard sober truth. Jeff.

it is all just a theory..until someone produces the gold

 

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[Hal Croves]

Thanks Frank. Doesn't phase me a bit though. I have been here for 13 years as Gollum (and four or five before that with my real name), and in that time I have seen a million Markmars. They don't post information seeking honest appraisals from other members. They only want to have someone back up and agree with their opinions. Anyone that disagrees is somehow "against them" or is somehow "attacking them". At that point, they lay on the insults until you call them out as internet tough-guy nothings. HAHAHA As everyone here that has ever known me knows, I am willing to give anyone that insults me the opportunity to repeat those insults to my face. They never do. But yes, I'm sure he will be the one to find the LDM via Google Earth. Just like BB found the LDM only to discover it was just Chuck Crawford's old diggings. At least I give BB credit for having the guts to show up at a Rendezvous and go to his site. Most people who have "found" the LDM are content to sit on their couch and argue with anyone who doesn't fall for their BS

Google earth can be a helpful tool it has been to us. But until you put rubber to the pavement, all you have is a theory, and I can say that with first hand the knowledge, as can anyone who has actually, been to the place. It amazing me how many people think they have discovered it with GE, and never step foot in the place. Even with boots on the ground, and even in the right place, the terrain is so severe, it is not impossible, to put pieces together, but it very difficult. Right, are guys are training with professional climbers, who are going with us so we can get to places. Maybe like us GE sometimes can help but in no way can anyone with just Google Earth be sure of anything, and if they are, they are not credible, that may be blunt, but that is the hard sober truth. Jeff.

I sincerely hope that you find whatever it is that you are looking for. With that said, sharing the plans that you are making, the expedition that you are planning, attempting it without a permit can be interpreted as a federal violation. You risk loosing any cooperation from the FS, a fine or something worse if a discovery is made and shared with the public. It’s only an opinion but one based on familiarity.

If you are willing to risk capital and the safety of your team, get preauthorization or forget your expedition and just go for a nice hike/climb with some technical gear.

And enjoy yourselves.

 

[Hal Croves]

Your are right, it is funny how so many put such faith in GE, I have discovered rock wall enclosures much larger than any mine entrance, as a result of actual boots on the ground explorations, funny thing is, I cannot distinguish them with GE, even with the exact coordinates. For me GE is worthless.

The resolution isn’t the best but GE is an incredible tool for those trying to orient themselves with the Superstitions. I have located things on GE and used that data to find and photograph the anomalies. Its a tool with limits.

The arrow that I shared in a very relevant location isn’t one of them but things sure went quite after I posted it. Except for markmar who dismisses it as being natural. Nature is full of surprises but that arrow isn’t one of them, IMO.

 

[markmar]

Hal

I posted a GE image of the arrow about 6 years ago, I don't remember the thread but I remember Wayne's ( somehiker ) answer , who maybe joking wrote how the arrow could be a mark for the Mail airplane.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

I posted a GE image of the arrow about 6 years ago, I don't remember the thread but I remember Wayne's ( somehiker ) answer , who maybe joking wrote how the arrow could be a mark for the Mail airplane.

I honestly don’t remember your post or somehikers response. If you find it I wouldn’t mind reading the responses. The things that I find intriguing are the location, the orientation to north and the fact that vegetation hasn’t concealed it since the earliest GE image, 1992. I know that nothing beats boots on the ground but for those who don’t have convenient access to the Superstitions, or for those who are disabled and unable to experience the range first hand, GE is a gift. An imperfect gift.

For argument sake, I challenge you to share another example of nature’s perfect symmetry and directional alignment.

 

[somehiker]

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/concrete-arrows-america/

 

[coazon de oro]

The resolution isn’t the best but GE is an incredible tool for those trying to orient themselves with the Superstitions. I have located things on GE and used that data to find and photograph the anomalies. Its a tool with limits.

The arrow that I shared in a very relevant location isn’t one of them but things sure went quite after I posted it. Except for markmar who dismisses it as being natural. Nature is full of surprises but that arrow isn’t one of them, IMO.

Howdy Hal,

I am with markmar on this one. Yes Google Earth has it's limits, but when one understands those limits, and how to properly read the images, it is a wonderful tool. X-rays, cat-scans, and mri's can't be read by everyone either, so just because I can't read those, I would not call them useless. A pencil is also a tool, a very simple tool, but even with it's simplicity, I can't draw any better that Jacob Waltz could. Yet there are some who can capture an image with a simple pencil, better than somehiker's camera. To find the LDM, what one needs is to understand the clues, and directions, whether with Google Earth, or boots on the ground. Follow the wrong clues, and directions, and you will find yourself asking a lot of questions.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/concrete-arrows-america/

Absolutely fascinating. Two things to consider... these were “beacon stations” each with a square slab that supported a tower and shed. The arrow that we see in the Superstitions has no such square or squares and the flight paths don’t show anything over the range.

I don’t think it’s natural but since I haven’t been to the location, it’s just an opinion. The Forest Service might know and contacting the websites creators for their thoughts would help. Have you done either?





Funny, one of the arrows in PA is right under my nose and I’ve never seen it.
Its not too far from this treasure.

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

I am with markmar on this one. Yes Google Earth has it's limits, but when one understands those limits, and how to properly read the images, it is a wonderful tool. X-rays, cat-scans, and mri's can't be read by everyone either, so just because I can't read those, I would not call them useless. A pencil is also a tool, a very simple tool, but even with it's simplicity, I can't draw any better that Jacob Waltz could. Yet there are some who can capture an image with a simple pencil, better than somehiker's camera. To find the LDM, what one needs is to understand the clues, and directions, whether with Google Earth, or boots on the ground. Follow the wrong clues, and directions, and you will find yourself asking a lot of questions.

Homar

I agree. But resolution is resolution and pareidolia/apohenia are human tendencies.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just would add amen to what Sarge posted - Marius you are ignoring one of the most knowledgeable people here by keeping Mike on ignore. Heck I would not put him on ignore even if I really were angry with him over something. I would love to have a chance to pick his brain and he is here on the forum offering his wisdom for free. Even I can afford that!

Please do continue;

 

[coazon de oro]

I agree. But resolution is resolution and pareidolia/apohenia are human tendencies.

Unfortunately, it is to common among Dutch hunters, both googlers, and boots on the grounders.

 

[sdcfia]

Just would add amen to what Sarge posted - Marius you are ignoring one of the most knowledgeable people here by keeping Mike on ignore. Heck I would not put him on ignore even if I really were angry with him over something. I would love to have a chance to pick his brain and he is here on the forum offering his wisdom for free. Even I can afford that!

Please do continue;

I agree. Mike is the last poster I would ignore. I've strongly disagreed with his conclusions before, but he backs his opinions with logical arguments and compelling facts. I've learned a lot from him, even though he's not always right IMO, ha ha.

 

[deducer]

Just would add amen to what Sarge posted - Marius you are ignoring one of the most knowledgeable people here by keeping Mike on ignore. Heck I would not put him on ignore even if I really were angry with him over something. I would love to have a chance to pick his brain and he is here on the forum offering his wisdom for free. Even I can afford that!

Please do continue;

Roy, let's you and I get him drunk and see what we can get out of him. It may take a few cases, but I think it'll be worth it.

 

[sdcfia]

...The arrow that we see in the Superstitions has no such square or squares and the flight paths don’t show anything over the range.

I don’t think it’s natural but since I haven’t been to the location, it’s just an opinion. ...

Years ago, an acquaintance sent me a stack of photo prints of things he thought were important located in the Superstitions. Included were large ground symbols - an arrow, a horse and a heart. These are intaglios, formed by moving/removing rocks and surface soils in order to form shapes that can be recognized from a distance. In desert conditions, these forms likely last for hundreds of years or longer, as is the case in many places such as Blyth CA and of course in the Nazca desert of Peru. Below are some scans of the photos.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I sincerely hope that you find whatever it is that you are looking for. With that said, sharing the plans that you are making, the expedition that you are planning, attempting it without a permit can be interpreted as a federal violation. You risk loosing any cooperation from the FS, a fine or something worse if a discovery is made and shared with the public. It’s only an opinion but one based on familiarity.

If you are willing to risk capital and the safety of your team, get preauthorization or forget your expedition and just go for a nice hike/climb with some technical gear.

And enjoy yourselves.

Hey, Hal thanks for the info. Hal this is a sincere, question, I have studied the regulations, at length, and will make sure we do nothing illegal. So the Question is guys on this site talk about things they have discovered all the time, that is historic. Often they share the location, how is that really so different, than what we are doing. First, we have formed Aracana Exploration, for inhouse issues, basically so in the event that anyone gets injured or worse, no one can legally, hold the other accountable financially. We are a bunch of guys hiking and having a great time, who may have found something of interest, and are going back on one shared vacation to see what we might have found. We are not a production company, we are not mining for gold, anything we find we photograph only, we are not digging any holes, or taking anything. If we find some loose Qwartz gold we may keep a couple of samples for verification. And we are telling our story about 6 friends that are on an unlikely journey together, and though not professionals truly amateurs, we are trying to things the right way, being safe, legal and fun also. If we interested in mining gold or taking artifacts we would not be so open. One of the things we talked about is that we need to do things the right way. One of our team members taught Eco-Tourism and like us he is all about doing things the proper way. I had written about 4 more paragraphs but I have lost it and do not have time to rewrite now but will try to finish tonight. Hal one quick question lets say, someone discovers something that would likely prove that Atzlan existed( just hypo) would that not be something important to the Meso-American community and should be know but also protected and studied by people expert in that field. Not us of course but sharing and protecting could insure that. thanks Hal Jeff.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hey, Hal thanks for the info. Hal this is a sincere, question, I have studied the regulations, at length, and will make sure we do nothing illegal. So the Question is guys on this site talk about things they have discovered all the time, that is historic. Often they share the location, how is that really so different, than what we are doing. First, we have formed Aracana Exploration, for inhouse issues, basically so in the event that anyone gets injured or worse, no one can legally, hold the other accountable financially. We are a bunch of guys hiking and having a great time, who may have found something of interest, and are going back on one shared vacation to see what we might have found. We are not a production company, we are not mining for gold, anything we find we photograph only, we are not digging any holes, or taking anything. If we find some loose Qwartz gold we may keep a couple of samples for verification. And we are telling our story about 6 friends that are on an unlikely journey together, and though not professionals truly amateurs, we are trying to things the right way, being safe, legal and fun also. If we interested in mining gold or taking artifacts we would not be so open. One of the things we talked about is that we need to do things the right way. One of our team members taught Eco-Tourism and like us he is all about doing things the proper way. I had written about 4 more paragraphs but I have lost it and do not have time to rewrite now but will try to finish tonight. Hal one quick question lets say, someone discovers something that would likely prove that Atzlan existed( just hypo) would that not be something important to the Meso-American community and should be know but also protected and studied by people expert in that field. Not us of course but sharing and protecting could insure that. thanks Hal Jeff.

You expressed concern with the Forest Service with regards to trust. I have a somewhat contentious relationship with the current forest archeologist(s) and an outright dislike for the one who was replaced. My experience with them has been, to be kind, frustrating and I am only offering you advice based on my interactions with them. Let’s say you were to find something important and presented that info in a formal application for a Treasure Trove permit.

You, your staff and your application are going to be scrutinized and if the FS finds reason to deny you, they will. You making your “expedition” plans public, doing unauthorized research is, in my opinion, going to leave you disappointed. If I were to find something by chance, before I returned to document the find I would craft a well written statement of intent, have an attorney proof it, then approach the FS for permission.

It’s about intentions and adherence to policy. I hope that I am just being over cautious and that the FS is cooperative. Again, this is just an opinion.

Prospecting, Mining, And Searching For Treasure In Wilderness Areas

Activities such as prospecting and treasure troving also occur in Wilderness Areas of the Tonto National Forest. Some of these activities are described briefly below. For further information on these activities including regulations and necessary permits, contact local the Forest Service Office that administers the area of interest.

Prospecting

Prospecting is the gathering of information on mineral resources. Prospecting is allowed within a designated Wilderness Area, but an approved Plan of Operations is required. No person can acquire any right of interest to mineral resources discovered by prospecting or other information-gathering activity. Extraction of minerals (except a small grab sample) is a type of mining, and must comply with all related laws and regulations; see "Mining" below. If the search is for precious worked metal or other treasure, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below.

Mining

Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filed until January 1, 1984, at which time all Wilderness Areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently- designated Wilderness Areas were closed to mineral entry upon enactment of the law creating them.

Gold Panning

This category includes panning, sluicing, or dredging wet or dry material. If any mineral is extracted by this activity (for recreation and/or profit), it is a type of mining; see "Mining" above. If mineral is not extracted, this activity would be a type of prospecting; see "Prospecting" above.

Metal Detecting

If the metal detector is used to search for and/or extract locatable minerals, the activity is considered either a form of prospecting or mining; see "Prospecting" and "Mining"above. If the search is for money (except recent vintage coins), or precious worked metal, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below. If the search is for recent vintage coins, no permit is needed so long as there is no significant soil disturbance.

Treasure Trove Hunting

A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, locatable minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. Searching for such treasure must be authorized by a permit. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection.

 

[Hal Croves]

You expressed concern with the Forest Service with regards to trust. I have a somewhat contentious relationship with the current forest archeologist(s) and an outright dislike for the one who was replaced. My experience with them has been, to be kind, frustrating and I am only offering you advice based on my interactions with them. Let’s say you were to find something important and presented that info in a formal application for a Treasure Trove permit.

You, your staff and your application are going to be scrutinized and if the FS finds reason to deny you, they will. You making your “expedition” plans public, doing unauthorized research is, in my opinion, going to leave you disappointed. If I were to find something by chance, before I returned to document the find I would craft a well written statement of intent, have an attorney proof it, then approach the FS for permission.

It’s about intentions and adherence to policy. I hope that I am just being over cautious and that the FS is cooperative. Again, this is just an opinion.

Prospecting, Mining, And Searching For Treasure In Wilderness Areas

Activities such as prospecting and treasure troving also occur in Wilderness Areas of the Tonto National Forest. Some of these activities are described briefly below. For further information on these activities including regulations and necessary permits, contact local the Forest Service Office that administers the area of interest.

Prospecting

Prospecting is the gathering of information on mineral resources. Prospecting is allowed within a designated Wilderness Area, but an approved Plan of Operations is required. No person can acquire any right of interest to mineral resources discovered by prospecting or other information-gathering activity. Extraction of minerals (except a small grab sample) is a type of mining, and must comply with all related laws and regulations; see "Mining" below. If the search is for precious worked metal or other treasure, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below.

Mining

Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filed until January 1, 1984, at which time all Wilderness Areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently- designated Wilderness Areas were closed to mineral entry upon enactment of the law creating them.

Gold Panning

This category includes panning, sluicing, or dredging wet or dry material. If any mineral is extracted by this activity (for recreation and/or profit), it is a type of mining; see "Mining" above. If mineral is not extracted, this activity would be a type of prospecting; see "Prospecting" above.

Metal Detecting

If the metal detector is used to search for and/or extract locatable minerals, the activity is considered either a form of prospecting or mining; see "Prospecting" and "Mining"above. If the search is for money (except recent vintage coins), or precious worked metal, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below. If the search is for recent vintage coins, no permit is needed so long as there is no significant soil disturbance.

Treasure Trove Hunting

A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, locatable minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. Searching for such treasure must be authorized by a permit. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection.

Here is one example of what you will be facing, and this was in response to my request to see a map in the FS collection:

"... As information is embargoed to protect site locations, and the National Park Service recognizes and adheres to the provisions of the Archeological Resource Protection Act of 1979, can you provide me with some professional affiliation information and credentials?"

I have no related professional affiliations or credentials. I am just someone who wants to understand history and those who make it. How do you think it went?
Protect yourself or forget the expedition and simply go for a hike with some friends in a place like no other.

 

[sdcfia]

Never, ever trust anything that any government employee or agent with discretionary authority says. Don't contact any of them prior to your venture.

Perform your expedition, being careful to follow all published rules and regulations to a T for the area(s) you're investigating. Assign a team member to video all aspects of the project - add timestamp and geotag to all media. Map the entire locale and document all finds in situ, being careful to not disturb any structural or natural components, per published regulations. Be certain no damage or artifact removals have occurred, and that you can prove it. Do everything by the book. When you've found what you came for and have the data, leave and keep your collective mouths shut.

Prepare a quality presentation that reveals all you want to say - a high-res video documentary, a report, a book, a lecture, an exhibition, or all these. Hire a professional if necessary and get a credentialed and open-minded archaeologist or historian on board (if you can find one). Release your presentation to the public, after absolving yourself of any legal liabilities that might be levied against you by any parties for divulging the location(s) of your discoveries.

If your claims have legs, the government will be obliged to 1) admit your discoveries are significant (which will add credibility to your claims); and 2) oblige them to develop plans that will protect the site(s) and encourage them and others to advance their own interpretations of the data. The debates will follow. You may be left in the dust at this point, but your original work, if done correctly, will be available as a baseline for all to use.

 

[gollum]

I agree. Mike is the last poster I would ignore. I've strongly disagreed with his conclusions before, but he backs his opinions with logical arguments and compelling facts. I've learned a lot from him, even though he's not always right IMO, ha ha.

I admit that I may not always be right..........BUT I'M NEVER WRONG!

Typical though. First, when I disagree or call someone on their BS I get insulted. When I call them on their insults, and give them an opportunity to repeat the insult to my face....."OOOOOOOH He's attacking meeeeeeeeeeeee REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" When I call them out on that BS....I get ignored. HAHAHA Doesn't bother me a bit. It has happened multitudes of times.

Mike

 

[gollum]

To play the devil's advocate a bit here: The Forest Service has a very hard time trying to protect remote sites. Nobody can guard them 24/7. People ABSOLUTELY destroy them. Whether its defacing a petroglyph, or chiseling out a million year old human footprint from a Texas River bedrock. Asinine people do asinine things.

The answer to the FS question for your credentials:

"I don't have any professional reason for viewing the site. I am a very good risk though. By coming here, if anything happens to the site, you can call me first!"

Mike