Continuum

[Al D]

Many posters here are simply fishing for information that might augment their particular pet project and perhaps support their theory or working model. Some of the anglers are pretty cagey. Nobody who has solved any sort of valuable riddle is ever going to reveal their solution on a TH forum. There's no benefit, other than attention gathering, which can bring unwelcome problems. Those who just make claims with no supporting evidence or argument won't be taken seriously and are likely to eventually be ignored.

Oro's questioning of a PSM/LDM connection is quite well-founded, IMO. The burden of proof lies with the claimant - that's just the way things work. Those who are insulted by the questions can calm the waters the air by initiating a convincing argument to support the idea. People who want the truth are first and foremost willing to change their beliefs when the facts suggest it.

I agree with you, however, I think you got the story line backwards, Oro made the claim that there was absolutly no connection and I asked how he could support such a claim.

 

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[arcana-exploration]

Howdy Roy,

There are many who have claimed to have deciphered the PSM's, just as there are many who claim that they are fake. If they had really deciphered them, they would have a mine to show for it. All they have is an excuse, and maybe a book with a lot of pictures, except pictures of the actual clues, and the mine. They all come here asking questions, proving that they have nothing, making up, or altering the clues to fit their story.

Jacob Waltz knew nothing about the PSM's because they were uncovered long after he was gone, it's that simple. However three of Waltz's clues are found on the stones. Are all the pyramids fake because you may not understand the symbols on them? Yes I can prove it to you, and I am glad that you can wait, because it will be a while.

Homar

I have stated this a dozen times !!! OF COURSE, KNEW WALTZ KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE STONES !!! The only connection is they independently, lead to the same place that is all they have in common!!!!

 

[azdave35]

I have stated this a dozen times !!! OF COURSE, KNEW WALTZ KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE STONES !!! The only connection is they independently, lead to the same place that is all they have in common!!!!

sure they do ..i'll get dorothy..toto and the tin man and meet you there..

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

Welcome back, while it makes no difference if they are called Peralta Stone Maps, or door stops, Greg Davis might have the answer. Mr. Davis has the biggest collection of articles related to the LDM. It's a slim chance since from what I have found, the stone maps were precisely buried in 1718. Anyway, Mr. Davis has an old article where Rafael Grijalva brought a stone back from Atlar, Sonora. Sometime later, Ramon Grijalva, his brother I believe, is said to have mentioned some stones in another article. I have never read what Ramon talked about, but I suspect that it was about the stones that Travis uncovered years later.

Homar

Thank you for the welcome Homer. Yes, if anyone has possible answers, it would be Mr. Davis who, like yourself , I have always considered a gentleman. The Grijalva Tablets might be a more appropriate description of the PSM, if that article is describing the same stones. That’s an enormous IF. There is still plenty of scientific testing that can be done on the stones, and should be. Why a fund hasn’t been started to finance professional testing is something of a head scratcher. I am in for the first $50.00 if one of you care to kick it off and manage it.

I am just not sure that this thread is the correct forum for the stone tablets only because, and I hope that you agree, they deserve one of their own based on science and historical fact.

 

[Hal Croves]

I have stated this a dozen times !!! OF COURSE, KNEW WALTZ KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE STONES !!! The only connection is they independently, lead to the same place that is all they have in common!!!!

They may. You would have to know where that place is and how it came to be before making the connection. Have you accomplished that?

 

[Hal Croves]

Many posters here are simply fishing for information that might augment their particular pet project and perhaps support their theory or working model. Some of the anglers are pretty cagey. Nobody who has solved any sort of valuable riddle is ever going to reveal their solution on a TH forum. There's no benefit, other than attention gathering, which can bring unwelcome problems. Those who just make claims with no supporting evidence or argument won't be taken seriously and are likely to eventually be ignored.

Oro's questioning of a PSM/LDM connection is quite well-founded, IMO. The burden of proof lies with the claimant - that's just the way things work. Those who are insulted by the questions can calm the waters the air by initiating a convincing argument to support the idea. People who want the truth are first and foremost willing to change their beliefs when the facts suggest it.

Historical contribution.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Historical contribution.

Hal, I will try to answer, your question, as I understand it. At first, I had a hypothesis and followed to a viable theory. In 2015 my best friend and my self then flew to Arizona for a week to see if what I thought I had was legit. When I look back now we had very little, and could not get to the site, but got close enough to find a couple of things fit the location. When I look back now we did not have much, except we thought we had the location but really did not know for sure. But I had a few things that were very compelling that we were in the right location. so the following spring we assembled a team and went back. We have been there on several trips with the team since then. WE have learned a lot, and have a team that is very skilled.
To answer your question, we have been able to find many things that fit, but some of the areas are so dangerous it can only be gotten to with repelling gear. This summer the team has been training with professional climbers. On our next trip, two hard-core climbers are going with-us. Hal, we are on the boots on the ground, and would not be going back if we did not have a lot, could we be wrong, anything is possible, but it would be the stranges of stories ever told. So I think to answer yes we had a specific site before we started, and yes, things are matching up. IMO You know when I look back to the first trip in 2015 we were very nieve and really did not have much, so

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, I will try to answer, your question, as I understand it. At first, I had a hypothesis and followed to a viable theory. In 2015 my best friend and my self then flew to Arizona for a week to see if what I thought I had was legit. When I look back now we had very little, and could not get to the site, but got close enough to find a couple of things fit the location. When I look back now we did not have much, except we thought we had the location but really did not know for sure. But I had a few things that were very compelling that we were in the right location. so the following spring we assembled a team and went back. We have been there on several trips with the team since then. WE have learned a lot, and have a team that is very skilled.
To answer your question, we have been able to find many things that fit, but some of the areas are so dangerous it can only be gotten to with repelling gear. This summer the team has been training with professional climbers. On our next trip, two hard-core climbers are going with-us. Hal, we are on the boots on the ground, and would not be going back if we did not have a lot, could we be wrong, anything is possible, but it would be the stranges of stories ever told. So I think to answer yes we had a specific site before we started, and yes, things are matching up. IMO You know when I look back to the first trip in 2015 we were very nieve and really did not have much, so

One thing that you will need to come to terms with, if you do find what you are looking for, is what your discovery will mean to those who concealed it (them). If Storm is correct, they (it) were wounds. Hopefully that means something to you and your team.

Be safe.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with you, however, I think you got the story line backwards, Oro made the claim that there was absolutly no connection and I asked how he could support such a claim.

Oro may have been a bit ambitious with his statement, yes, nudging into the "evidence of absence" gray area trap of shifting the burden of truth. It's a classic counter-argument in the world of logic. However, in the real world most of us live in, most people realize that you can't prove a negative and that it's the positive claims that must be proven. The way that is done is to provide support to the claim.

 

[Hal Croves]

Don Joseph Antonio de Alzate, y Ramirez 1768
Princeton University

I need help with translating the notes around the Salt, below it and above.
Thank You.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Hal,

You may be able to make out the letters, and numbers better, just send me the notes you need help with by pm, and I will gladly translate them for you.

Homar

 

[markmar]

Don Joseph Antonio de Alzate, y Ramirez 1768
Princeton University

I need help with translating the notes around the Salt, below it and above.
Thank You.

View attachment 1744955

Hal

Above Salt River is something ( I can't make out the first word ) concerning " Swing " which " was discovered in 1744 by Padre Sedelmayer ".
Below Salt River at the about the place of Superstitions , is written " Land of Crucifers ". And little up to the right is written " Mountains visible from Gila River in 1699 ".

Edit: what was discovered by Padre Sedelmayer was Rio del A(n)sumpcion which its translate would be Swing or Safe River

 

[deducer]

Don Joseph Antonio de Alzate, y Ramirez 1768
Princeton University

I need help with translating the notes around the Salt, below it and above.
Thank You.

View attachment 1744955

Where did you find this map? And do you have a more complete version?

 

[arcana-exploration]

One thing that you will need to come to terms with, if you do find what you are looking for, is what your discovery will mean to those who concealed it (them). If Storm is correct, they (it) were wounds. Hopefully that means something to you and your team.

Be safe.

Thanks, Hal great question, I have thought about that a lot. There are about four things, that are important, to whoever finds it. #1 My guys are the most honest above board guys you will ever meet, almost to a fault. If any of them are buying something somewhere and they get charged the wrong price( too low), they will let the clerk owner of the shop you did not charge or collected the wrong amount, you are going to be short. We have talked at length about protecting the historical, entities, on-site. We will not take anything but photographic evidence, with the exception of a small sample of loose gold, for verification purposes. #2 One thing I can guarantee, by us finding it, is nothing will be taken. But we will document what is there on film. ( I really do not trust people at the Park Service) Buy us finding I can guarantee, the site will be respected. Also, the site is in a location that takes equipment and training to get to and eliminates 98% of the people out there. #3 Casa Grange is known and protected and monitored, this site is historically as important and will be monitored, IMO. # If we have what we think we have, it needs to be protected, and can be, but also shared with the world. In theory, keeping it secret, is great as long as people that care like you and others on this site are the ones who would keep it a secret are the ones who find it. But if the wrong group finds it, things could be lost forever. So it is a dammed if you do and dammed if you do not. I actually really have a concern, about the park service, what are your, thoughts there. I have not talked about this to the team but has entered my thoughts that if there are historical artifacts, to turn in on Phoenix TV so they are documented for everyone to see so nothing comes up missing. Of course have someone like the Dutchman Muesum there at the time, or the Arizona historicle society. I just do not trust the park service, what are your thoughts. I want my grandchildren to see these things after I am gone.

 

[somehiker]

https://storage.googleapis.com/raremaps/img/xlarge/31332rg.jpg

 

[PotBelly Jim]

SH: Do you think "Cruciferos" is referring to the Indians (Onate?) saw who painted crosses on their foreheads? If I remember right, he referred to them as "Cruzadores"?

 

[Al D]

SH: Do you think "Cruciferos" is referring to the Indians (Onate?) saw who painted crosses on their foreheads? If I remember right, he referred to them as "Cruzadores"?

I had thought Cruciferos referred to the Penitentes

 

[somehiker]

SH: Do you think "Cruciferos" is referring to the Indians (Onate?) saw who painted crosses on their foreheads? If I remember right, he referred to them as "Cruzadores"?

The land of those who bear crosses ?
Could be .
Small area, and just north of the Gila in Mineral Mountains.....so kinda sounds exclusive or enclave-like.
Plenty of bordered cross petroglyphs on rocks on that side of the river out there too. Cochran town site, Coke Ovens, Stone House, stone walls, smelter and ruins marked on other old maps. All clustered north and south, surrounding that part of the Gila......also the "scrapings" not far to the NW.
One old map even has that same area labeled "Aztlan".

 

[arcana-exploration]

The land of those who bear crosses ?
Could be .
Small area, and just north of the Gila in Mineral Mountains.....so kinda sounds exclusive or enclave-like.
Plenty of bordered cross petroglyphs on rocks on that side of the river out there too. Cochran town site, Coke Ovens, Stone House, stone walls, smelter and ruins marked on other old maps. All clustered north and south, surrounding that part of the Gila......also the "scrapings" not far to the NW.
One old map even has that same area labeled "Aztlan".

The upper canyon section of the Gila has turned up lots of Meso -0 American inanities and it has been barely explored, and I can almost guarantee, there is a wealth of things there that point to a Meso-American- presence. If I was 40 years younger I would have that on my list to do next.

 

[Hal Croves]

Where did you find this map? And do you have a more complete version?

Rare Books & Special Collections - Princeton University Firestone Llibrary

Available here:

https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/7946571


Homar, Marius, deducer - Just below the where the Rio Verde and R. Salado meet are three villages. Obvious.
Rio is used before the word Verde.
Same with the Rio Azul and other rivers on this map.

But the Salt River is noted R. Salado.
Above the R. is something that I initially thought was the O in Rio.
But now I am not sure.

Also, under the same R looks like another small symbol.
Its not clear to me what they represent but these two symbols, their locations, where would you place them?

Please let me know that the link is valid.