Crispin vs. fire nugget (nitric Acid)

[Crispin]

You make the call: I did some things out of order but will clarify. I wrote controls because I thought they might be Aluminum but some were not. Aluminum and iron dissolve in nitric acid.


metal blob pendant:


metal eagle:


metal nut ring:


metal found in Bahamas, thought to be a cob:


unknown metal blob that kicked everything off:


1/2 reales found together:


.999silver that came with test kit, test right of it, turned dark red:


Ring stamped sterling, test to the right of ring:


Iron completely dissolved:


So there you have it folks. What I got on my hands is not Aluminum, some degree of silver in it. Of note, I tested a ring I thought was gold and it completely dissolved . Passed silver test and failed gold. Keep it mind I found most of these things in the same spot. Fire on a spanish ship is my guess...

 

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[Ant]

The scratch test for gold is quite simple.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

BRB...gonna test silver eagle...

Dont use your good stuff...it will leave a stain.

 

[releventchair]

Need more fresh ocean run samples.
Dang now you have to go detecting again. Congrats!

 

[Crispin]

Used the good stuff. Sometimes it is worth it to prove a point. Of course, the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I'm insane for thinking that ordering a silver testing kit online suggested by ARRC would serve as proof.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

sterling silver is bright red. I am not claiming the melted blobs are above .900. melted shipwreck silver takes on impurities...this is basic science. I'm not trying to pull rank or anything but do you have degrees in anything that qualifies you for this type of thing...because I do.

Well Im just trying to help. Your silver "reales" should be the same color as the silver coin you just posted or more brilliant. I know this from testing my silver reales found on the beach. No I am not a doctor and never claim to be. I have been here since 2004 and you are not the first person to find melted blobs and thought they were spanish reales from a burning shipwreck. What impurities?

So how many of your blobs are red, brown, or reddish brown (like the coin) ?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Used the good stuff. Sometimes it is worth it to prove a point. Of course, the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I'm insane for thinking that ordering a silver testing kit online suggested by ARRC would serve as proof.

It is proof. As soon as we determine how many of your samples are red or reddish brown. Aluminum turns yellow so its not hard to tell. Im studying your pictures but its hard to see the reddish stains.

ADDED: Lead and Tin also turn yellow.

 

[Crispin]

Well Im just trying to help. Your silver "reales" should be the same color as the silver coin you just posted or more brilliant. I know this from testing my silver reales found on the beach. No I am not a doctor and never claim to be. I have been here since 2004 and you are not the first person to find melted blobs and thought they were spanish reales from a burning shipwreck. What impurities?

So how many of your blobs are red, brown, or reddish brown (like the coin) ?

Thanks for the help, but we are done here. The four 1/2 silver reales were milky white which meant .925 and above. The rest of the silver I always claimed was melted. Impurities are going to drop that significantly. If the reale was never melted then I wouldn't need the help. You seem like a nice guy, and I like you, but my education level in organic chemistry has exceeded anything you are willing to accept as proof. I'm not trying to sell anything and we both agree that even if it is silver then it is worth scrap at best. So it is time that we part ways. You can lean on skepticism and I will lean on science. Things are not always as they appear.

When I dig up the shipwreck I will come back and post more proof. Adios!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks for the help, but we are done here. The four 1/2 silver reales were milky white which meant .925 and above. The rest of the silver I always claimed was melted. Impurities are going to drop that significantly. If the reale was never melted then I wouldn't need the help. You seem like a nice guy, and I like you, but my education level in organic chemistry has exceeded anything you are willing to accept as proof. I'm not trying to sell anything and we both agree that even if it is silver then it is worth scrap at best. So it is time that we part ways. You can lean on skepticism and I will lean on science. Things are not always as they appear.

When I dig up the shipwreck I will come back and post more proof. Adios!

What 4 half reales? I agree you are far more educated than I am as I never finished high school. What I know is very simple. Silver reales turn red or reddish brown. Milky white is not on the color code list. I dont know how else to explain it to you.

Pure silver turns bright red
Silver (Stirling Silver 92.5%) turns dark red
Silver (80%) turns brown

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20944

As the percentage of silver subsides, the resulting color will shift towards brown when tested with Schwerter's solution. Also, if allowed to sit long enough, the original red reaction will shift color, revealing the presence of copper. It's not really sensitive enough to be used as a method of determining silver content, but if a reaction lacks a red color, pretty good chance there is no silver present, or that the percentage is so low that it is overshadowed by the color of base metal(s).

You can't (reliably) determine silver content with Schwerters. I've read the definitions of color variations and how they're related to the percentage of silver that is present, but in practice it isn't all that reliable. My advice to you is to use Schwerters to determine the presence of silver, and not rely on the results of the test to determine purity.

I may look on my chart to see what is milky white because I cant remember. After that Im finished trying to help..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

This is my last post on any of your threads Crispin, as you wish. I found my old color chart. But like I said, you need a little experience testing metals with this acid solution. And its not always definitive with all metals, especially with all the alloys, zincs and pot metals. The first color is on the metal after one minute (A). The second color is after wiping it off (B). So I do see a "greyish white" color listed on the chart for pure silver but only after wiping. It should be a bright red after one minute before wiping. Anyway Im out. I have more important and certainly more enjoyable things to do. Take care and good luck on the beaches. No hard feelings on my end. Some other members may appreciate this color chart.

Its just as I remembered. Lead, Tin and Aluminum are all Yellow. Pure silver is bright beautiful Red.

apply a drop of solution- watch for color reaction.

A) Wait one minute, check the color of the solution on the unknown metal
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(A after one minute ) ---------- ---------(B after wiping)

Brass--Dark Brown --------------------------light brown
Copper--Brown--------------------------------cleaned copper
Gold--None-------------------------------------none
Nickel--Blue------------------------------------scarcely any
Lead--Yellow----------------------------------leaden
Tin--Yellow------------------------------------dark
Silver(pure)--Bright Red-------------------grayish white
Silver .925--Dark Red----------------------dark brown
Silver .800--Brown-------------------------dark brown
Silver .500--Green--------------------------dark brown
Palladium--None-----------------------------non
Platinum--Vandyke brown---------------none
Iron --various -------------------------------black
Zinc --light chocolate---------------------steel grey
Aluminum---Yellow ---------------------no stain

B) then wipe the solution off and look at he spot left on the metal.


I have seen some different variations of this chart. But as far as I know, all the hi percentage silver turns red reddish-brown or brown. I dont know how you test low percentage silver. When I was in the A/C business, I used 5, 10, and 15 percent silver solder. And Im sure melted blobs of this solder can be found. I dont know how to test for it as the test solution will be reacting to the base metal..

I cant imagine that a fire on board a Spanish galleon would mix metals such as copper, brass and lead with the silver usually kept in locked chests well below deck. And wood and sand certainly wont alloy with melted silver. They didnt have aluminum, zinc or pot metal alloys. I cant remember any melted Reales ever found other than those found by Pegleg that were melted by the Ais Indians. I have pictures on my old tower if anyone wants to see the melted and hammered Spanish doubloons.

My best suggestion and my last is to post your melted Reales on the Shipwreck forum or in Spanish Cobs.. They are far more experienced than I. Actually I may post the question myself. Im always willing and wanting to learn. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/spanish-cobs/468894-melted-spanish-reales.html

 

[fowledup]

I work for one of the academic institutions you speak of. If you are serious about wanting it positively identified I can have it done for you. PM me and we can set it up. Bad part is the students are gone for the summer and last time I didn't get the results back for a couple months, just depends on their work load, sometimes it's a day or two.

 

[trikikiwi]

[QUOTE ...

BTW: Here is a photo of my son with a stye in his eye...do you want to argue that with me as well?

View attachment 1184951[/QUOTE]

I've been following the discussion on this thread with interest, as although I have extensive experience in working in chemical related industries, it's been in management and/or production roles, so I can't really add to either side of the debate, with any assuredness. However, I can't resist commenting on your son's unfortunate circumstance with his eye stye.

I am enjoying the irony, in that my dear departed Mum's (and her Mum's...) well proven, seldom failing, method to cure a stye in the eye was to rub it directly with a Gold ring

I hope your son gets better soon.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I rotated it for you

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I rotated your pics to try and study them to be fair but I still cant see what you are trying to show us. Here is the photo you have labeled half reales. Are you saying you shaved some half reales to test them? Why didnt they turn red? Why didnt you just put the test solution directly on to the fire nuggets? Are you using the Schwerters solution (a dilute nitric acid solution) to show that it doesnt dissolve? Even if you were able to eliminate aluminum, couldnt it still be a wide variety of solder, lead, pewter, or zinc pot metal alloys?

 

[Crispin]

I rotated your pics to try and study them to be fair but I still cant see what you are trying to show us. Here is the photo you have labeled half reales. Are you saying you shaved some half reales to test them? Why didnt they turn red? Why didnt you just put the test solution directly on to the fire nuggets? Are you using the Schwerters solution (a dilute nitric acid solution) to show that it doesnt melt? Even if you were able to eliminate aluminum, couldnt it still be a wide variety of solder, lead, pewter, or zinc pot metal alloys?

View attachment 1184998

It can't be lead, solder, or pewter because I tried melting it with my 900F soldering gun and it was a no go. It can't be zinc because zinc dissolves in muriatic acid. Zinc really doesn't hold up to anything. I PM'd fowledup. If his graduate students need the extra work I will mail him a piece.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am trying to gather information here for my own personal knowledge. Its not all about helping you, crispin, at this point. TN is a constant learning experience. Some call it brain food. You asked for my qualifications. Like I said, I am not college educated, as my knowledge comes mostly from hands on experience. I have been selling antiquities and collectibles for 40 years. I have been metal detecting longer and I have found Spanish silver on the beach. I have been here at TN since 2004 and I have about 20,000 posts on the What Is It Forum alone, helping others. I have been here since Marc Austin created this site and members donated for a new server to stay online because we believed in what we were doing..

I want to tell you something about the What Is It Forum. I will abbreviate it to WIIF. We may bicker back and forth on the WIIF but its the end result that is most important. You can insult me all you want but will get it right in the end. We have a responsibility to get it right. I haven't been participating much lately but the old TN WIIF Forum always had a reputation of getting it right. We cant just stop here.

I am trying to gather information on the Spanish Cobs Forum on melted Reales or cobs found on the beach. The only example so far is the Ais Indian doubloons found by Pegleg that I mentioned and I will post some pictures if I can find them on my old tower. If your items are proven to be melted reales from a shipwreck, you may become a famous person in the TN archives. But we cant go around making bold claims without proof. I hope you understand, crispin. People around the world use the WIIF for reference. . http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/spanish-cobs/468894-melted-spanish-reales.html

Copper... was other metal used.

From Wikipedia:
An eight-real coin nominally weighed 550.209 Spanish grains, which is 423.900 troy/avoirdupois grains (0.883125 troy ounce or 27.468 grams), .93055 fine: so contained 0.821791 troy ounce (25.560 grams) fine silver. Its weight and purity varied significantly between mints and over the centuries.

Might enjoy this read...
I did.
Colonial Coins - Section Contents

BCH,
The silver composition of the reales changed after 1728 to 91.7% from 93.1%.
That info might help date the 'blob' if your friend's find are only melted reales.
Don.......
PS: Welcome back; again.

I havent posted in the Shipwreck Forum yet.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Your metal #3 looks like the lock-nut for a switch or panel light. In which case it might be chrome plated brass.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Crispin, here is the melted silver found near Indian River by the now deceased and beloved member Pegleg. I cant find the old post because it may have been lost before the purchase of the new server. I will try and get more information for you. As I recall, the silver contained iron impurities but tested a high grade.. The round shape seems to signify that the ancient Ais Indians used a round container or iron pot in their attempt to melt the coins. I dont know who owns these artifacts at this time.

Quote Originally Posted by aquanut View Post
Pegleg showed me an old iron pot with about two ounces of high grade silver still in the bottom. He believed they were reales from the 1715 fleet and were melted by the Ais Indians. He also showed me 22 gold escudos that were hammered down pretty flat, but you could still see the cross and a few markings. All were found in the same place along the Indian River near the shipwrecks.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Gentleman, NO ONE can tell anybody to stop posting on a thread but mods and admins, as long as posts are by the rules all are welcome to post in any thread unless told not to by mod or admin..

 

[worldtalker]

When I dig up the shipwreck I will come back and post more proof. Adios![/QUOTE]



Iffin you do we'll never hear from you again.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It can't be lead, solder, or pewter because I tried melting it with my 900F soldering gun and it was a no go. It can't be zinc because zinc dissolves in muriatic acid. Zinc really doesn't hold up to anything. I PM'd fowledup. If his graduate students need the extra work I will mail him a piece.

We know its not high grade silver, because its not red or brown like your Sterling ring or silver coin. Correct?

If its a low percentage silver, then is must have other metals in the mix, correct? If the other metal is not lead, solder, zinc or pewter, what do you think the base metal is? (its not wood or sand).