Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[somehiker]

Wayne,

Personally, I thought it was a good idea as well. Just never believed that the powers that be would allow the test to take place. Once what Jim was wanting to test was exposed, he lost interest in continuing his game here. I know something you don't know.......

What is going on with this site, and the many new identities, is exactly what brought down the LDM Forum.
Same MO, same source. This site has way too many members for it to work, but I can see where some might decide to look for greener pastures.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe:

"I know something you don't know......."

That may or may not be true,but I doubt that you would be any more likely than Jim to share the details of such a proposal with every reader of this website.Perhaps after the proposal was accepted,but not before.

Ain't heard a taunt like that since grade school.If you were a muslim,I'd tell you to blow up.

The test,if done,may have added an interesting footnote to the history.
It's not likely that it would have ended the controversy over why they were made,by who,and what they might lead to however.
Only a later origin of either material would have prompted any rethink of my own conclusions.Even then,the repair and contamination could have been done/occured some time after the discovery.

We actually have no way of knowing for sure that any of the stones that we have viewed are,in fact the stones that were found by Tumlinson.A number of copies were made,we know that to be true.How do we know that a duplicate set was not made by Tumlinson himself,since he was worried about theft? I wonder if he owned or borrowed the electric drill and sander? Could the stone set "donated" to the Flagg Foundation be his own set of duplicates? From where I stand,that is exactly what they are......except for the heart.

Multiple identity creation appears to be the only way that some individuals can build an army of allies,even an enemy with which to do battle from time to time.Nothing new.It's been going on for a long time.Probably dates back to the day the Dutchman took his last breath.I'm sure that some also use aliases as a means by which they might gather information, or disrupt a topic as well as demoralize others.
Sometimes,when they are too obvious,I'll have a little fun with them.Kemm for example.
It's not my style,which is why I use the same handle on all of the forums since the beginning.I'm too busy being myself to be somebody else as well.

Regards:SH.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

As I said, "I thought it was a good idea as well." It was not really a very difficult puzzle to solve. I have researched the science of aging....stuff, so I assumed it had to be the glue and not the rock.

Have you ever seen reproductions of the Stone Maps, that were made from the same stone as the originals? I never have, or even heard of such reproductions.
Can't imagine how many pieces of rock would be destroyed getting to the final product.

Fact is, I never lived in Apache Junction or Arizona until around 17 years ago, so that may be something that is common knowledge among the folks that live down there. The Dutch Hunters that I knew are all dead now, although I keep hearing rumors that Ernie Provence is alive and living in Quartzsite. Need to take a drive down there and see if it's true.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
I am well acquainted with the fact that moulds were obtained from the Flagg Stones.That these moulds were then used to cast several sets of copies.It has also been said that a set of "half-sized" replicas were made as well,presumably of plaster.The Flagg Stones are of course not plaster,but from what appears to be three types of native stone.This was confirmed when the experts hired by Desert Archaeology examined the stones that had been donated by MOEL.It was also found,during the examination that those stones had been created using modern electrical tools that were readily available at that time.I am not saying that any of the copies that are in the hands of collectors are made from stone,rather than plaster,including those owned by the SMHS,but you have alluded on more than one occasion to a knowledge of "someone having seen someone" carving the Flagg Stones,presumably with an electric drill.Perhaps Ernie has heard of this and knows more about it than what has been said so far.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Springfield]

.... A. "I know something you don't know.... "

.... B. We actually have no way of knowing for sure that any of the stones that we have viewed are,in fact the stones that were found by Tumlinson.

.... C. Multiple identity creation ....

A. Sometimes true, but if significent, why crow about it? I've heard this statement a number of times and typically ignored it.

B. We have no reason to build a foundation on any 'TH clues' or 'facts' unless we personally speak with the protagonist or witness the event/thing ourselves. Sorry if that excludes nearly all of us from obtaining accurate information, but it is what it is and wishfull thinking will not change things. Do we want a recovery or do we want a hobby?

C. Some do it for privacy, some do it for chicanery. The ignore button is helpful. Censored forums are another solution, but I personally don't cater to others deciding things for me.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Good post! I once decided that Joe Ribaudo was becoming the focal point of the discussion over on the LDM Forum. Felt it would be better if I just took a new identity and continued posting. I picked my pup "Heidi" as my new persona.

Even though I was still putting forth the same ideas and "evidence", the attacks stopped immediately. I knew it was just a matter of time before someone caught on, and Carolyn and I both assumed it would be Peter.
We were both correct. It did not take long for the attacks to resume.

During the time I posted as "Heidi", it had become a pleasure to exchange ideas again, as opposed to constantly defending myself from the unrelenting attacks. When I joined Jim's Forum, I used another identity instead of my name. Even so, I identified who I was right off the bat. No one came after me......well, almost no one.

Those are the only two times that I have not posted as Joe Ribaudo, and everyone knew it was me on Jim's site. Many people post anonymously and remain respectful and sane. Others choose anonymity as a curtain to hide behind, and post the worst filth and fantasies they can dream up.

That kind of thing has, pretty much, destroyed the LDM Forum. I don't mind the off the wall stuff, as long as it's not purposely designed to disrupt and harm the site. Some of the people posting here have now learned to disguise that agenda better. Despite that, it remains the same old game.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

I remember Heidi.One of my favourite reads as far as nom de plumes go.
Heidi II was entertaining as well.Of course,I am not saying that there was any connection between the Heidi twins,just as I am also unsure that there be a connection between Heidi and Lamar,two names that seem to jog a memory cell when combined into one,although the introduction of so many names derived from historic sources seems to point to a scant few with many years of research under their belts,as well as a penchant for nostalgia.
It seems to me,having for about five years now,followed some of the more contentious topics,with the subject of Jesuit Treasure leading on the Richter scale followed,not co-incidentally a close second,by any discussion related to the Stone Maps,that a predictable causality quickly supplants any non-confrontational discourse in progress.
Lamar is a prime example.A highly dogmatic alpha and self-claimed/admitted Jesuit,he can be back tracked to home base by both substance and style.His shield is made of religious fervour,in defence of Jesuit vows of poverty,likely emblazoned with the Amalfi cross (as is his avatar).With Jesuit dagger(purely symbolic of course)cleverly concealed (CCW), he mans the fortress wall,converts at his side, with kettles of boiling Jesuit counterclaims with which to repel any heretical theorist who dares to post any historical account of Jesuit wealth.
He hasn't done that good of a job,though.If I were his commander,his next post would be a monastery somewhere in Siberia.
Santa Fe was a sample of the other extreme,with several,sometimes also historically based names such as "Molina" employed as his name du jour. His home base carried the name of one "John V. Kemm" and his rants,raves and you-tube videos will continue to adversely affect the worlds opinion of Treasure hunting and hunters for some time to come.If that was his intent,or his assignment,he probably got a bonus.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Sorry, I have no idea, for the most part, what you have just written.

For the record, Lamar uses his real name.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

-----------------------5th------------------------just listening.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Jim Hatt]

Wayne,

Did you just think of all that up as you were typing it, or have you been working on it for a few days?

Either way... I understood every word just fine

Wayne,

For the record, Lamar uses his real name.

Joe,

Errrrrrrr...Ahhhhhh,

Wouldn't the word "USED" be more appropriate, in view of the fact that we have not heard hardly a peep out of Lamar, since he admitted to being an assumed "Persona"?

Best,

Jim

 

[somehiker]

Actually Jim,it is just a few of my thoughts,gathered over a few years.No matter how well written some of these "Sybil" types are,and how hard they try to cover their tracks, they sometimes stay up too late and mess up.I have noted, for example,instances where a poster has signed his post with a name used by another poster.I have one example saved,in fact last time I checked,it was still up.
Evidently,neither the alias,or his alter, has noticed the error.This,of course is better evidence than other noticeables that are mostly consistencies that fall into a "quacks like a duck" category,but are compelling nonetheless IMHO.

Maybe our friend "Lamar" has packed his library and shipped out to Siberia.

Wayne,

Sorry, I have no idea, for the most part, what you have just written.

For the record, Lamar uses his real name.

Take care,

Joe

If Ida bet on who would be first to reply,I would have won that bet.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Furness]

OOOO Wayne Cromwell would have loved you, you'd have made the perfect priest catcher,

about the changing names. i have been pretty sure on a few occasions it was the same person under a diffrent name jumping in to post in defence,

posters can change their name but rarely change the way they write and structure their sentences, even when it's typed,
and another who's understanding of English is that bad he still made the wrong choice of word when after 4 years he found the spell checker and posted under another name,

Lamar was dogmatic, and wouldn't let go or even consider that parts of a papal bull were open to any interpretation other than his own, even when it flew in the face of research over many years by historians that relate to another field and went against all that was known, admittedly that was not very often,
but historically i enjoyed what he wrote and can't really find fault especially as i know very little about the Jesuits, except that where he was wrong he wouldn't admit it, he just jumped to another thread and didn't reply,

he still posts, he posted some time ago that he was sticking to the religious thread on T net,
he was probably fed up with us numpties disagreeing with him,
but as a born again atheist i can forgive him his sin's !!!!,

John

 

[Blindbowman]

well if this is what this post is about .. i have change one name only once in the whole time i have been here and that is because i changed computers and the blindbowman name would not relaod correctly i have no idea why ,... i then loged in under the always lost and i am still loged in under that name ,, i change the name to blindbowman in the profile as someone told me i could change it that way .. it is still running this way .. and i have no reason what so ever to post in any other name .. if i did .. it would be under tazz11, or the Rainman and i have had the tazz11 name from the age of 7 as a artist ...and yes i still do use that name else where . but not very often ..when i cut my ties with the smokeing world i change my goals in life and wanted a clean future ahead of my research ...

but none of that has anything to do with this site .. and i dislike those that have to use more then one name to control a topic or troll a site .. its childish and degrades the people and topics ....

if you dont agree with me step up and i will debate any thing you want too ..one on one and at the Redenous i plain to end the LDM .. and full explain the stones translation ,, so if there are any question .. bring it ...

fact !

 

[somehiker]

BB:
You are indeed,one in a million.And I,for one,would call the odds of any of us ever seeing you actually show up at the Rendezvous with TT permit in hand,or a rock fulla gold,at one in a million as well.
That,and only that,will make your's or anyone's claim to finding the LDM a "fact".
Sorry to be blunt,but that's just the way it is........and that's a "fact".
You would be welcome to tell your story,and we will be interested to hear what you have to say.
Most,if not all,will be willing to shake your hand.Who knows,you may even make a few friends and gain a coupla pounds.
Now,that's a "fact".

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

"DeGrazia's style is best described as "cartoon". That is the way the horse and priest

drawings are also described. (Era 1940's) Ted signed all of his work, including the

Horse/Priest stone. Although DeGrazia did burn some of his paintings in front of many people

and a camara crew, I don't believe he buried any of them.

More likely, they were hidden and brought out a few at a time to sell in his gallery after

his death. He had found a way to beat the tax man's game.

Joe Ribaudo"

Hi Joe:
I posted your quote over to this topic in order to avoid any conflict with Hal's theory.
Hope you don't mind,as I have a question which I think is relevant to your DeGrazia theory.

Have you,or anyone else ever approached the owners of the Flagg stones with the suggestion that the stones be examined by an art expert(perhaps three experts as a way of removing any doubt), familiar with DeGrazia's work?
That would be the best way to prove that he was the person who created,at least,the Horse/Priest stone IMO.
If proven to have been carved by DG,the H/P stone at least would likely become one of the most valuable examples of the artist's work.Especially when the controversial history is taken into account.It could well become a major Art World/General Interest story and a big boost to the Mineral Museum and SMHS.I can't see why they would refuse to allow such a study.

Regards:Wayne

 

[coazon de oro]

"DeGrazia Theory" I fail to see any basis that would even constitute this as a theory. Ted was not the only one who couldn't draw. Don't you see the odds of this? If for example Ted had a habit of drawing horses with no eyes, and the horse on the PSM's had no eyes, then there would be some basis.

This theory is like claiming BB made the PSM's just because they have misspellings. Meaning no offense to BB, just trying to make a point.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I should think that Ted's artwork might be somewhat different than carving on a rock, but believe your idea has a lot of merit. I don't know if they would have to see the stones themselves, but I have very good pictures. It's worth a try.

The profile of the priest, is a dead ringer for Chuck Aylor.......FACT!!!

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
I would assume that the stones themselves would have to be examined.I've never heard of a case where any art by a well known artist has been "authenticated" from photos.I couldn't imagine any expert would be willing to put his reputation on the line,by declaring yes or no,based on anything less than a physical study.As I pointed out previously,the stones are,and have been in the public domain ever since they were first put on display.They are secured and no harm can possibly come to them as a result,and we who wish to view them ourselves can continue to do so.Does that make sense?

Regards:Wayne

PS: ever consider the "Fact" that Chuck Aylor's profile was a dead ringer for the Priest.
Got any pictures of Chuck sporting a witches hat,a dunce cap would do as well,I suppose.(no insult intended)

 

[Blindbowman]

Wayne,

I should think that Ted's artwork might be somewhat different than carving on a rock, but believe your idea has a lot of merit. I don't know if they would have to see the stones themselves, but I have very good pictures. It's worth a try.

The profile of the priest, is a dead ringer for Chuck Aylor.......FACT!!!

Take care,

Joe

joe : i will say it once again and i am not trying to attack you or change the topic .. if Chuck Aylor was alive in 1640 - 1646 , then yes your are correct it could be him .. but .. i have out right proff real evidence that the stones were made in 1640-1646 and only in that time time span ..so i think Chuck Aylor would have to be a very very very unborn baby ...

to have had anything to do with the stone creations ..joe some of the coded data is in clear DR tracking useing a tarverse board .. and no in todays modern world knows how to read and plot DR line dot .. i am the only one i know of out of a few thousand QM that would even have a chance to under stand this type of nav plotings and it took me over 9 yaers to brake it down and plot it ..

i fully under stand your point of veiw and if the stones were just some crazy kids game .. you could have been right .. but they are not .. the stones hold a very complex code and needed 4 diffrent groups of people to create them and very gifted Jesuits to make the stones ..

I out right agree with you joe .. its easy for us to try to relate to what we know in the modern world and this is a true draw back when correctly ageing objects .. and stone is even harder to age .. and when the text is a compile of diffrent languages and data from diffrent sorces its even more complex then we can for see .. but .. like anything .. we can diseable the object into all its peices and then see how they fit back together one by one .. . we have a set of objects all link together .. the Tayopa letters , the stones and the Ruth Gonzales map ..

just to help you all under stand what i am talking about .. look at what i stated .. the Ruth gonzales map

is clearly defind on the stones by the D3 and the stones had a set of dirrections and i stated the priest standing on the stones with the dagger in hand pointing do east .. is in fact a liveing tarves board .. the stone show coded DR tracking and only when the 3 parts are decoded and put back together correctly can we under stand what they really mean ..

there is no question what so ever these objects are one set .and the tayopa letters are dated and real .. so all of the set must be dirrectly link to the letters ... fact .. and no one made them in modern times .. its imposable ..

 

[Blindbowman]

Joe:
I would assume that the stones themselves would have to be examined.I've never heard of a case where any art by a well known artist has been "authenticated" from photos.I couldn't imagine any expert would be willing to put his reputation on the line,by declaring yes or no,based on anything less than a physical study.As I pointed out previously,the stones are,and have been in the public domain ever since they were first put on display.They are secured and no harm can possibly come to them as a result,and we who wish to view them ourselves can continue to do so.Does that make sense?

Regards:Wayne

that what normally be very true .. but the fact is the writeing and dateing the stones is only two facters here .. there are many factors in this case .. one the type of languese . and the type of navigation used . the code it self .. and how the code works .. how complex it is and why .. how many sorces created the stone .. i isolated 4 diffrent groups related to the makeing of these stones .. and in all 4 cases i can link them to the group or preson and the same date and time line for all 4 of the diffrewnt groups parallell each other in the time span i out lined here between 1640 and 1646 ..

it is imposable to fake something like that .. the odds would be some where in the nature of 100 billion to 1..

your talking about a type of navigation only a few higher skilled naivigators from portgal could have trained the preson that help make the stones .. and he had to have been a given age when he learn those skills and then when he gave the data to the jesuits ..

i link these skills to only one man out of hunderds of ships captains .that were posable to have made these stones and one one captain had all the skills and was dirrectly link to a nother one of the 4 groups in that given time span ..

it would hold up in a cort law .. it is the only logical answer .. and when we see the tricone on the witches head ..it just adds to the fact . i am correct .. same with the Mare del Tayopa pasto ... other portugese in the same area at the same time used the same language and tremanalogy

no you are all wrong .. and i am in fact correct .. i can come to the redenous and prove it out right with out any dout what so ever and i dont have to guess and trick anyone .. i can walk to the mine and show everyone i am correct ...there is no way to fake these stones . the code makes sure this can not be done .. thats why the complex code was used ...

 

[Cubfan64]

"DeGrazia Theory" I fail to see any basis that would even constitute this as a theory. Ted was not the only one who couldn't draw. Don't you see the odds of this? If for example Ted had a habit of drawing horses with no eyes, and the horse on the PSM's had no eyes, then there would be some basis.

This theory is like claiming BB made the PSM's just because they have misspellings. Meaning no offense to BB, just trying to make a point.

Homar P. Olivarez

Homar, while I'm not the originator of CJ's "DeGrazia Theory," I've heard Joe's explanations which go well beyond just the stone map carving/artist (I'll let Joe expound on it if he wants although I know he's done it here before).

I'm not really much of a stone map afficienado, but I personally can at least follow where his theory comes from.