DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

UncleMatt · Nov 8, 2014

I too would LOVE the luxury of being able to apply scientific research methods to treasure hunting. But as has been pointed out so often, if those verifiable sources existed on the topics we discuss here, there would be no lost treasure, only FOUND treasure...

H-2 CHARLIE · Nov 8, 2014

Blue Mountain coffee. .. or ... cuban espresso ?

Not Peralta · Nov 8, 2014

UncleMatt, we all learn from everything, especially found treasure, that's what its all about, theres more forgotten treasures than there are found treasures, and the best way to learn how to find a treasure
is to actually listen to the people on here that have hunted for them, no one on here is going to tell you everything they know, its the bits and pieces that are shared on here that help. just my opinion. np :cat:

gollum · Nov 8, 2014

SDCFIA,

Why no pics is absolutely a very good question! I don't believe for a second that the Noss Family has any pictures of Doc standing in front of any piles of bars. People have been calling them hucksters and liars since the 1930s. If they had any pictures like that, they would have come out decades ago. ESPECIALLY in any of the several court cases where Ova was trying to get back into VP after the Military kicked them off in 1955. I am pretty certain that the question of proof came into many discussions since 1937.

But then again .............. of the few times Fiege and Berlette were in their cave, why didn't either one of them take a picture? I can't imagine neither one of them thought about it. If they would have taken pictures, then the only reason for the polygraph would have been to prove they didn't take anything from the cave.

Swanner was down there. Why don't we have any pics from Swanner?

The only story we know of that ANYBODY had pictures was that of Kathleen Shipp. She said that a guy she dated showed her pictures of stacks of gold bars he said was from VP. When interviewed, at first he denied knowing her, then he admitted knowing her, but denied having such pictures. He is still alive, and his name is Charles W Abston. He lives in New Mexico. I doubt that he would willingly admit to having something that could conceivably get him in a lot of trouble, but a friend of a friend? Who knows.

Mike

UncleMatt · Nov 8, 2014

Not Peralta said:
UncleMatt, we all learn from everything, especially found treasure, that's what its all about, theres more forgotten treasures than there are found treasures, and the best way to learn how to find a treasure
is to actually listen to the people on here that have hunted for them, no one on here is going to tell you everything they know, its the bits and pieces that are shared on here that help. just my opinion. np

I agree NP, but would add I would place more faith in those who have FOUND treasure, and not just searched for it. Until you actually find something, its all conjecture isn't it? I am all for learning from people who have experience, but if they have no successes to point to, how valid are the opinions they operate from really?

For me its not just about finding treasure at all, I love the research and learning process! Any of us would be LUCKY to find some treasure, so I just don't count on that going down.

I think there is a real tendency for treasure hunters to try to link things together in the absence of evidence to support such thoughts, and also to think their methods are sound, even when they have no results to show for them.

UncleMatt · Nov 8, 2014

So why would Charles think he would get into trouble if he showed pictures of gold bars to people? I doubt any of the thieves of VP are still alive today, are they? If I were him I would be cashing in on those photos, not keeping them to myself! The irrational paranoia of people is the greatest obstacle to finding the truth OR treasure these days!

Not Peralta · Nov 8, 2014

UncleMatt, true, but how many people on here are going to tell you they actually found treasure, think about it. np :laughing7:

UncleMatt · Nov 8, 2014

Yup, that's true too. So I guess if someone shows up here and demands respect for their methods, the response is "show me". You don't get to play both sides of that card with any validity.

Posted later: I have to add something to what I said above: You can be the best researcher in the world, and have the best research methods known to man, and still not find something you are looking for. And that is because of two things: There may not be enough evidence left in existence to draw a conclusion from, and the treasure may have already been found. Given one or the other, your search is doomed to failure in the end, but not due to anything you did or didn't do. And learning from those people how to do research, who haven't found anything, is very possible and valid. The teacher may not have found anything, but perhaps the student will use those methods to find another treasure where there is enough evidence and its still there to find.

gollum · Nov 8, 2014

Matt,

You are entirely correct. What you have to do in your own head is decide whose (if anybody's) advice you want to take. Many people that have actually found anything significant don't post anywhere. They don't want to get into that conversation of "Why should I listen to you? What have you found?" There are some that do post, but you don't know they ever found anything unless you know them.

Mostly, there are folks that never found anything, but want you to believe they have found the secrets of the ages. They are all-wise sages that can show you the way. They have broken the Jesuit Treasure Code, but can't show you anything they have found.

............. and then, there are those like me. I have made several smaller finds. Nothing to retire on, but enough to keep me spending a ton of money on equipment and research. Enough to keep me on my feet instead of my ass. HAHAHA The REAL thing that keeps the addiction strong is that, in the course of my finds and research, I have been fortunate enough to meet several people whose great grandchildren will never have to work. A couple of them fairly recent. That keeps me KNOWING (not believing) that there are still large finds to be made. You just have to keep at it. My friend in Tucson that found the 82 pounds of gold bars, had been hunting since 1956. He found them in 1985. The article came out in 1986. The longer you stay at it, the more you learn. The more you learn (if you're somewhat humble) the more people will open up to you, and let you in on some of their inside knowledge.

Mike

UncleMatt · Nov 8, 2014

And who could blame them! Why put up with a bunch of questions you don't want to answer! Especially when there may be, shall we say, "Imperial Entanglements" due to you revealing you found something.

So we are all stuck here pontificating, afraid to reveal, paranoid as hell, pounding down the booze and coffee, and god knows what else. We are doomed.

But I too enjoy the hunt, and have spent copious amounts of money and time on this "hobby". I've been in my house for a year now, but it remains mostly empty of furniture because I would rather spend money on high tech goodies and camping equipment than have a leather couch with built in recliners in my living room. :laughing7:

sdcfia · Nov 8, 2014

gollum said:
SDCFIA,

Why no pics is absolutely a very good question! I don't believe for a second that the Noss Family has any pictures of Doc standing in front of any piles of bars. People have been calling them hucksters and liars since the 1930s. If they had any pictures like that, they would have come out decades ago. ESPECIALLY in any of the several court cases where Ova was trying to get back into VP after the Military kicked them off in 1955. I am pretty certain that the question of proof came into many discussions since 1937.

But then again .............. of the few times Fiege and Berlette were in their cave, why didn't either one of them take a picture? I can't imagine neither one of them thought about it. If they would have taken pictures, then the only reason for the polygraph would have been to prove they didn't take anything from the cave.

Swanner was down there. Why don't we have any pics from Swanner?

The only story we know of that ANYBODY had pictures was that of Kathleen Shipp. She said that a guy she dated showed her pictures of stacks of gold bars he said was from VP. When interviewed, at first he denied knowing her, then he admitted knowing her, but denied having such pictures. He is still alive, and his name is Charles W Abston. He lives in New Mexico. I doubt that he would willingly admit to having something that could conceivably get him in a lot of trouble, but a friend of a friend? Who knows.

Mike

I agree with everything you've said here. Maybe the reason the Nosses were accused by everyone of being hucksters and liars since the 30s is because they were.

Feige & company? This scheme went down after VP was annexed onto the base, which made VP government owned at that time. I suspect it was just "insurance" in case something later went wrong with the Nazi gold laundering operation. That way, they could claim Feige found "Spanish gold" that Noss was looking for earlier but never could prove he found, and so the government recovered it as a treasure trove. If the recovery ever came to light, they could say, "Yes, we found a bonanza. Lucky us. No, lucky for the whole USA! We sent it to Fort Knox!" They knew the Nosses couldn't prove it was theirs, because they knew the Noss VP discovery was bogus. So far, the government has continued to ride the deniability horse and hasn't needed to play the treasure trove insurance card.

Swanner? He ostensibly spilled his guts to his family out of guilt. However, he likely also knew that if he tried to prove what he said, the government would have just killed him. Obviously no pictures from him.

Abston? Let's see the pictures, then we'll talk about it.

sdcfia · Nov 8, 2014

Not Peralta said:
HELLO, the same could be said for VP gold, or CABALLO gold ,or any other treasure in the SW. you want provenance go to a flea market, or an auction. when you have spent the time in the field and doing the research a lot of these people have done in their lifetimes, and are blessed with the the spirit of insight , you will know if things are right or not, real treasure hunters and researchers use what info works for them ,not what works for anyone else.most things you read on here did not happen yesterday, some things happened many moons ago, try reading the post from the beginnings, try reading mikes post on Jesuits,and there are a lot more post on Jesuits listed, read and learn from the past. np

The question here is: did Noss's gold come from the Caballos or Victorio Peak? The evidence clearly indicates the Caballos to me. When we focus on the Caballos, then we can speculate how the gold got there.

gollum · Nov 8, 2014

sdcfia said:
The question here is: did Noss's gold come from the Caballos or Victorio Peak? The evidence clearly indicates the Caballos to me. When we focus on the Caballos, then we can speculate how the gold got there.

Its not as clear to me as it is to you, but to each his own. Although, without any 100% solid evidence, I am completely open to any possibility. Since I didn't personally know Doc, Ova, or Letha, I can't speak to their honesty (or lack thereof). Like I said, I have read most all (that I know of) books on the subject, and spoken to many people from the area, and who were involved in different aspects of the stories. I get different stories when it comes to Doc. Some people he got along well with, and others he didn't. Guess what the different people say about him? HAHAHA Some people latch onto the stories about Doc selling fake gold bars. In his book, Khoury explains that by saying Doc would set up meetings to sell bars. If he got a bad feeling about someone (thought he was being set up by Gov Types or thieves), he would bring a badly faked bar to the meeting. The "buyer" would get angry and leave. Who do you believe?

The civilian that was heavily involved with both VP and Ft Huachuca is named Bill Shriver.

When Tom Whittle found him in Rio de Janeiro in 1981, this was what he said:

We can account from actual distribution to prime accounts, in excess of 7 1/2 million ounces of gold removed from Victorio Peak. Take that and Ft Huachuca together and there's almost 11 million ounces.

The gold was removed starting in the early 60's and ending with the biggest movement in late 1976. The one he described as THE LARGEST SINGLE MOVEMENT OF METAL IN THE HISTORY OF THE PEAK, and said it was done by military aircraft. He estimated the total amount of gold removed from Victorio Peak at 25 million troy ounces.

The 1976 movement he said, consisted of 10 million troy ounces. He said the gold was smelted into old Mexican bars, 50 pound bars after being removed from the peak. It was flown to germany, crated as 'airplane motor spare parts'. From Germany, it went to a refinery in Switzerland where it was resmelted, papered, and sold. The buying entity was a middle-eastern principle, but would not get any more specific than that

Mike

johnmark29020 · Nov 8, 2014

If the deposit of gold at vp is part of a much biggger operation. One that atleast reached pinal county in az.
Then figuring out how vp fits and the route. Could possibly lead to other caches. The military may have cleaned vp out,but how many others where missed. Nps map is a perfect match to the perfil map location in az. Im not talking arm chair here.
I have been to the site in az. Seen everything on the petfil map. I strongly believe that the same people who cached at vp. Also cached at my location in pinal county. So what other lost cache stories lay between the two site. Nm and az. If the military emptied vp. We may still have the last laugh by finding the other sites. If they exist.
I found my location by following walzs directions. When I was there I found the mexican connections.

Here a question for the experts here.
I found the location of a treasure map. It laid out perfect. Except one thing. The map showed a symbol for a cache,but there was a very old stone cabin where the cache was marked. The ground had been built up. Leveled with in a reataining wall of stones. The cabin sat in the middle. What do you guys think.
Could the cabin be hiding a entrance or could the symbol mean the cabin was hidden.

markmar · Nov 8, 2014

Mike

You wrote :

" If he got a bad feeling about someone (thought he was being set up by Gov Types or thieves), he would bring a badly faked bar to the meeting. The "buyer" would get angry and leave. Who do you believe? "

If someone sells gold clandestinely , supposed he have made an assay and knows how are true gold . In these deals is not time for jokes . Why to made a deal with someone who looks no trustworthy and to put his life in risk , when he could told very simple : " I don't have any more " or " Finally is not gold ' ?

Noss would become from joker a victim if the buyer was honest ( in their deal ) , smart to understand how the bar was fake and would want to see if Noss would take the money and leave . What would been the next step ? Noss to say " Sorry , was a joke " or to leave with the money . I believe only by miracle Noss would not been killed in the first case , because in the second.....

gollum · Nov 8, 2014

markmar said:
Mike

You wrote :

" If he got a bad feeling about someone (thought he was being set up by Gov Types or thieves), he would bring a badly faked bar to the meeting. The "buyer" would get angry and leave. Who do you believe? "

If someone sells gold clandestinely , supposed he have made an assay and knows how are true gold . In these deals is not time for jokes . Why to made a deal with someone who looks no trustworthy and to put his life in risk , when he could told very simple : " I don't have any more " or " Finally is not gold ' ?

Noss would become from joker a victim if the buyer was honest ( in their deal ) , smart to understand how the bar was fake and would want to see if Noss would take the money and leave . What would been the next step ? Noss to say " Sorry , was a joke " or to leave with the money . I believe only by miracle Noss would not been killed in the first case , because in the second.....

Doc carried a pistol. He wasn't especially worried about being robbed. He was mostly (as I understand it) worried about being set up by a government agent to sell gold illegally. He didn't want to go to jail for that. Remember, Doc was never robbed of ANY gold bars. He may have been screwed over, but not robbed.

Mike

markmar · Nov 8, 2014

gollum said:
Doc carried a pistol. He wasn't especially worried about being robbed. He was mostly (as I understand it) worried about being set up by a government agent to sell gold illegally. He didn't want to go to jail for that. Remember, Doc was never robbed of ANY gold bars. He may have been screwed over, but not robbed.

Mike

Was never robbed of any gold bars maybe because was a " robber ' himself . Could been involved in the Willie's abduction ? How he searched desperately for the Willie's gold cave , leave a " small " suspicion .

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp · Nov 8, 2014

Sorry Marius, both answers are wrong. Why would he say "no more Bars ??" admicicion of guilt.

markmar · Nov 9, 2014

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Sorry Marius, both answers are wrong. Why would he say "no more Bars ??" admicicion of guilt.

Don Jose

First I don't wrote " bars ". Second was just my opinion deduced from my life's experiences .
The " I don't have any more " don't mean " I don't sell any more " or " I don't have any more for sale " , or how you ever sold .
What looks like a not trustworthy " buyer "? A person who try to approach you without using your trusted contacts . What usually says this person ? " I have heard you have gold and I am interested to buy " . And your answer would be .....
Both answers are to " fishing " your fake buyer for your betrayer . And of course , the buyer to protect his source , stops the conversation there .