Doing the "Due Diligence Dance"

[goldenIrishman]

Ok... I am just about ready to turn in my dancing shoes here. Between local governmental agencies not having any idea of what's going on and Federal agencies having even less of a clue (combined with an attitude on the phone as well) I haven't been able to get the required information on some sections of ground that Jan and I are very interested in. Let me tell y'all what I've encountered on this little journey so far and see if I'm the only one thinking there's something funny going on here.

As most of you know, I've been using the MyLandMatters.org site on a regular basis to research areas in an effort to find some good ground to claim and mine. I use all of the layers and information there to decide on which areas to explore in more depth and to decide on which areas to flat out avoid. Using Clays site I can check things like current claims and who owns them as well as access to just about any given area of interest. Jan and I found some interesting ground in a HIGHLY mineralized area that is only 20 minutes from our house and that's where the "Due Diligence Dance" started. Here is some background information that's highly redacted in some areas to preserve our own interest.

The area that we are interested in had been claimed in quarter section chunks by a corporation out of New Jersey. They had grabbed up three quarters of a couple of sections (as well as full sections in some other areas) so of course I was looking at the unclaimed areas in those sections. Well during my research I learned that this corporation had lost seven out of their eight "members" back in 1999. A transfer of interest was filed in November of 2014. Further research showed that the BLM rendered a decision in 2015 that the claims had to be "adjusted" from 160 acres (entire quarter sections) down to 20 acres with in these quarter sections. The LR2000 shows that the adjusted filings were recorded on 08/19/2015. The problem is that NO ONE at BLM can tell us what the "adjusted" claims locations are!!!! BLM doesn't know even though they show it as being filed. The Mohave County Recorders also have zip, zero and nada for information on these adjustments in their records.

Jan and I are trying to do everything "By the book" here and avoid any possible legal problems down the road. What is frustrating is that we can't get the required information we need to be able to prove that we've done our due diligence and done it correctly. While the young lady at the Mohave County Recorders office was very helpful and tried her best, there was nothing in her records on any adjustments being made to the original filings. While the BLMs records show that the adjustment was filed on 08/19/2015, they can't find (or are too lazy to look for it) the adjusted sizes of these claims and their new boundaries. Not only that, but the guy on the phone copped an attitude with me like he couldn't be bothered to do his job.

Those of us that try our best to be responsible miners by dotting all the "I"s and crossing all the "T"s in an effort to follow the laws are running into these kinds of problems on a regular basis any more. Since I started researching these areas, I've developed a feeling that the corporation that had claimed these areas up is/was running some kind of scam and their investors found out about it. While gold mining scams are nothing new, their actions have caused a lot of good areas to be locked up which prevents honest miners from claiming and working these areas. I had considered contacting the company in question to see if they would give me the information on the adjusted claim locations but decided against it in case they are running some kind of scam. What would keep them from lying to us so they could set us up for a lawsuit for claim jumping?

I realize the importance of doing our due diligence, keeping all our records up to date and playing by the rules. It's unfortunate that there are others out there that seem to insist on playing games and keeping honest miners from earning a living off the land. I haven't named any names or given any information on the exact locations in question because I want to be able to file on these areas as soon as I can get things worked out. Even so, I'm not going to stop trying to find out the truth on what's going on here, nor am I going to limit myself to just these areas.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[fowledup]

For the most part I've learned that many post incorrect info and even more like posts with incorrect info.

ON that we certainly agree....so in your efforts to correct them/us be specific and complete, show us what you know instead of telling us how right you are and wrong we are and leaving it at that. Providing no examples other than partial incomplete fragments and purposely omitted or modified excerpts that seemingly support your claims doesn't prove anything. Not to be mean, rude, or insensitive but if your coming on here to find someone to talk to without having to listen in return, try facebook or twitter. You don't have to agree with anything anyone says but you can at least be friendly and respectful in your disagreement. If that isn't in your nature, try another forum that may be more receptive or conducive to your style of communication. The majority of us here would rather share and learn. From the majority of what I've witnessed in the past, we approach our disagreements in such a way that in the end everyone comes away with a better understanding, a little more educated, or posess a new way of looking at something. Ideally nobody takes it personal, feels attacked, or disrespected. Your making it very hard to treat you in that matter with your current approach.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[delnorter]

The PLSS lands Clay Diggens spoke of, showing the Principle Meridians and Base Lines which the surveys and land breakdowns are referenced to.

 

[timemachine]

Yay, sun in Arizona is fading to the 90's and it's finally time to get gold digging again! Woo hoo. At the beginning of this thread I heard a cowbell, and I assumed it was a dinner bell because of all the talk about mess. I guess the messhall is open for business! Hope I don't step on any rattlers in the desert this year! I guess my take away from this is check for claims, double check for claims, and then stake a claim! Good luck mining everyone!

 

[StreamlineGold]

Doing the &quotue Diligence Dance"

You have been told wrong. The State of Arizona establishes the laws regarding claiming in Arizona not the BLM.



Claims are not made by GPS or Latitude/Longitude. There are only two ways to legally describe a claim, aliquot part or metes and bounds.

Arizona law only requires that the map be "Based upon the performance of a survey performed commensurate with the abilities of the locator." and "Nothing contained in this section shall require a locator to employ a professional surveyor or engineer for the preparation of the map, plat or sketch required by this section."

In my experience most prospectors don't have a clue how to do a survey or make a map. Lucky for them the law allows them to do their best and still keep their claim no matter what rumors you heard.

It's pretty simple for prospectors to find the truth of these matters. I've spent years helping to educate prospectors. I've seen you putting these same incorrect ideas about claims out in public before. Why not discover the facts and leave those rumors behind you?

Here are the laws regarding mineral locations in Arizona. It's not very long and if you have difficulty understanding what's written there myself and many of your other fellow prospectors are here to help you.

Educate yourself and prosper!

Heavy Pans

But what about the grounds that are unmarked whatsoever? If I want to claim the open ground that's near their location how am I supposed to know the claim boundaries?

I follow your posts a lot man, I'm admittedly a little green to the legalities for staking my own claim..once we go down that road I'm sure I will hit you up for advice

 

[goldenIrishman]

Indeed! Since I've already done the dance I tried to get out to the area today and start sampling. Well... I actually made it this time!!! I'm thinking YEE Hawww! There's gonna be materials running through the sluice at last! Nice weather today, plenty of buckets, implements of destruction in the back of the truck and a pleasant drive to the site.

My great day wasn't going to last though. A storm moved into the area and decided to flinging some lightning around so we had to load everything back up after only two buckets had been classified. Kind of burst my bubble but I wasn't leaving empty handed no matter what. We're going to try it again tomorrow and see if we can finish the first sample and get another one from a different part of the area as well.

 

[goldenIrishman]

But what about the grounds that are unmarked whatsoever? If I want to claim the open ground that's near their location how am I supposed to know the claim boundaries?

That is where going to the Country Recorders Office and being prepared with the right information and questions comes into play.

Know the location of the area in question. Usually it is located by Township and Range along with the quadrant number. When you get to the office, ask for information on ANY claims in that section. You need to get the location / description of the claim AS IT WAS FILED. Once you have that information, plot it on a map. You can do this on paper copies but I do it on the computer instead. I save the modified map with a different file name so I've always got a clean digital copy of it and print out the section I need. You need to be sure that your maps HAVE the PLSS information on them so you can plot the locations. (Unfortunately the BLM is still in the dark ages and won't use GPS cords to locate claims.)

There can be any number of reasons that a claim is not marked. It might not have been marked because that particular state doesn't require it. It could be that the claim has been there for some time and weather has knocked them down. Worst of all, some unknowing camper may have used it for firewood! No matter what, it's the prospectors duty to know where the markers SHOULD BE and to avoid other claims that are still current. Good map reading/orientation skills are needed as well as a good compass. You can often figure the GPS cords out with no problem, but double check your location on the map as well to be sure.

 

[StreamlineGold]

Doing the &quotue Diligence Dance"

Are there any digital means to obtain a copy of the claim map / diagram other than going into the office or waiting for them to be mailed? I have gotten this info from the BLM for some areas in question but it took a while

 

[Clay Diggins]

The BLM does not have "digital" information on the location of recorded claims that can be relied on. Claims are recorded with the County Recorder and that is the official public record of the claim - not the BLM case file.

In Arizona several Counties do offer mining claim records, including location notices, online. Some Counties are free. Maricopa and Yavapai Counties both have free unlimited records downloads. La Paz now has limited downloads of mining claim records. Other Counties like Pima County have prepaid subscription services.

You can access the County Records search function direct from the Land Matters Mining Claims Maps by turning on the "County Recorders" layer and following the links that are offered offered in the information return window.

You can find the Recorder's book and page number for some claims in that claims information return. Use that in the Recorder's document search to get direct access to the scanned location record in those Counties offering free document copies.

If the locators did not provide that information when filing with the BLM you can find the Claim Location Record by searching by Township, Range and Section numbers in the "Advanced Search" tab. That will return links to all the recordings in that Section, even the abandoned ones.

Once you have a copy of the location recording and any amendments (found under the "Related Documents" link on the left of the individual record page) you can plot the Legal Land Description with the help of the location map(s) on a topo map. Get all the claims in the 9 sections related to your section of interest because some claims will cross section lines but only be recorded in one section.

When you have finished that process you will have a map of all the active recorded claims in your area of interest. Recent claims have 90 days from staking to make their public record with the County Recorder so you will still have to look for new claims on the ground no matter what was already recorded.

Remember that land status determines if the unclaimed lands are open to claim, you will need check that too before making your own claim. Luckily Land Matters has help for that too when the time comes.

Heavy Pans

 

[IMPDLN]

I have a question Clay. What agency is responsible to validate or verify the validity of a claim these days? Say for example if the patent process for mining claims is ever enabled again. I ask because of the fact that I see so many obvious claims that are paper filed that in no way meet the requirements for how a claim is supposed to be filed, mostly with lode claims. For example when I look at old patented lode claims there is usually many overlaps in the boundaries since veins, ledges, and lodes aren't likely to run along the ground like lines on a graph. However I see so many lode claims these days that are basically just stacked blocks that couldn't possibly be located along the strike of a vein, ledge or lode as described in the claim filing instructions. Does any agency ever even look into claim validity by the prudent man rule as stated in the instructions? I have an idea I already know the answer, but just thought I would ask. Dennis

 

[DizzyDigger]

chlsbrns
Bronze Member
This message is hidden because chlsbrns is on your ignore list.
View Post
Remove user from ignore list
Nope

Ditto...and my morning is much more peaceful and stress-free as a result.

**********************************************

Surgeon Generals Warning: Getting into Internet debates may be harmful to ones health.

Don't let this be YOU!

 

[Jeff95531]

First LOL of the day Mike. Thanks!

 

[goldenIrishman]

Good with the coffee Dizzy! One of the very few to make the ignore club. The rest got smart and moved on.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I have a question Clay. What agency is responsible to validate or verify the validity of a claim these days? Say for example if the patent process for mining claims is ever enabled again. I ask because of the fact that I see so many obvious claims that are paper filed that in no way meet the requirements for how a claim is supposed to be filed, mostly with lode claims. For example when I look at old patented lode claims there is usually many overlaps in the boundaries since veins, ledges, and lodes aren't likely to run along the ground like lines on a graph. However I see so many lode claims these days that are basically just stacked blocks that couldn't possibly be located along the strike of a vein, ledge or lode as described in the claim filing instructions. Does any agency ever even look into claim validity by the prudent man rule as stated in the instructions? I have an idea I already know the answer, but just thought I would ask. Dennis

Thanks for an excellent question Dennis. You always offer good prospecting advice and your questions really do go right to the heart of an issue. And you get gold - I think I see a pattern here. It's a pleasure to have such an accomplished prospector on this forum. I hope you will continue to post here.

Of course the answer is a bit involved but I'll see if I can't make it clear in as few words as possible.

First a couple of basic principles found in claims law:

1. The BLM is the only government agency that administers federally managed mineral lands. This includes not just the public lands but also the subsurface estate (minerals) on the private lands that are still owned by the U.S. (about 300 million acres). If the government wishes to challenge the validity a mining claim the BLM is the agency that will handle the validity proceedings.

2. If a citizen wishes to challenge the validity of another citizen's claim State Courts are the place to make the challenge. Being a civil matter between citizens the challenger must file suit against the claim in the first court of original jurisdiction for the County. What these courts are called in your State varies but usually they are called Superior Court or Circuit Court.

3. If a citizen wants the government to challenge a mining claim they can petition the BLM to initiate a "special challenge" to the claim. The BLM will decide if it's a challenge they want to pursue. The citizen who requested the special challenge will be responsible for all costs. These special challenges are very rare due to the expense and time involved. You've got to have deep pockets to go down the special challenge path.

The BLM is not required to validate a claim. Validation is a very expensive process and requires a lot of time and resources. If the mineral claim is valuable but not yet perfected the claim owner will usually raise many objections and appeals that can take years. Unless there is a significant withdrawal (National Park or Wilderness) it is rare for the BLM to pursue the validation process. This is changing over time as the greenies rise in rank in the BLM but using budgeted funds to pursue green vendettas can make that new BLM manager look like a bad choice to the higher ups. It's a budget balancing act for sure.

The BLM does do a land status check about 6 months to a year after a claim case file is opened. This consists mostly of a check to make sure the claimed area is not withdrawn from entry or private land. This is called a land status check and is not part of the validation process.

Lode claims made in blocks are not necessarily invalid. While most of the more valuable lode claims of the past were made to pursue "veins or ledges" as described in the Mining Acts "lodes" or massive mineralization in place also falls under the status of lode claims. Think of the pophry copper deposits at Ajo or the massive low value mineralization of the Carlin Trend. Those are neither placer "float" or "ledges or veins" but they are minable elevated mineralization in hard rock. They are true lodes.

Often these blocks of lode claims are used to lock out an area to competing mining companies or to get investment based on the size of the claim owners holdings. Just like the habit of amateur placer miners of claiming 160 acre placer claims the odds of these claims passing a challenge are very low. But as you can see those challenges can be expensive for the challenger so it's a claims gamble few will lose.

As far as private technical legal challenges to claims locations they are rarely successful. Challenging another's claims based on paper errors, staking, procedure, or minor deviance from the PLSS or size restrictions is not favored by the courts. Historically and practically the civil courts see these issues as the normal variances produced when a rough and tumble prospector meets government plats, laws and regulations. The Court will almost always rule for the senior claimant unless there is gross error or an obvious attempt to manipulate the law or misconstrue a location to the disadvantage an adjacent locator. To the civil Courts the intent of the locator is more important than their ability to draw a map or write a legal document.

It is wise for all claimants to prove the validity of their claim as soon as practicable. Not only is a perfected claim immune to government and civil challenge but when the Patent process is funded again the path to a patent and outright ownership is only an application away.

Heavy Pans
Barry

 

[KevinInColorado]

Doing the &quotue Diligence Dance"

Let's keep the discussion civil and respectful y'all. We want people to feel welcome here so please assume good intentions and go from there...

 

[goldenIrishman]

Kev... Check your PMs

 

[mikep691]

Clay, I had the mining laws saved on an old computer, just haven't done the research on this new one due to work and mining every weekend. Could you throw up links to the original mining laws and FLMPA (?) I'm especially interested in what constitutes a perfected claim. More on the prudent man rule would be appreciated as well. Thanks.

 

[bobw53]

Clay, I had the mining laws saved on an old computer, just haven't done the research on this new one due to work and mining every weekend. Could you throw up links to the original mining laws and FLMPA (?) I'm especially interested in what constitutes a perfected claim. More on the prudent man rule would be appreciated as well. Thanks.

I'm curious about the "perfected" thing also. I've seen it thrown around, but I don't know much about it.

 

[Clay Diggins]

You can find copies of the Mining Acts and the FLPMA in the Land Matters Law Library.

Search by "1866", "1872" for the Mining Acts or just search for "Mining Act" to get a broader view. Search for FLPMA... by putting in "FLPMA".

All the PDFs available in the Library can be downloaded and shared, are OCR and can be searched within the document, and the text can be copied and pasted.

Land Matters doesn't make any of those Google restrictions on "copyright", blocking search and copy, or silly tags at the bottom of every page.

Heavy Pans

 

[mikep691]

Got them, thanks.

 

[IMPDLN]

Good info there Barry. I knew some of that info, but wasn't clear on all of it. Thanks for the clarification. What made me ask is I know of a particular grouping of lode claims that I'm pretty sure is just paper filing that I wish would go away. It has some good placer ground locked up. I'm sure it's not going to be a large lode like the Carlin Trend. This block does surround an exiting patented lode mine, but the areas beyond the patented ground has no known lode. No effort has been made by the claimant to even explore the ground. They obviously have money to keep paying maintenance fees so all I can do is wait and hope. This isn't any kind of mining company, just an individual from what my research has found. Oh well, I have plenty of places to explore while I wait and see what happens out there. Thanks again, Dennis