Dowsing test

[ClonedSIM]

So, what, Art, you gave up on the "double blind" thing when you finally came to the realization that Carl did indeed know what he is talking about, and you try to find a different front to attack from?

I have to wonder why what Carl is doing bothers you so much....

 

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[Rich NY]

OK, here are 2 examples of DB testing, which do not place the people in groups. These are called product-preference tests.

Case 1: Taste test. Does any particular bottled water really taste better than others, or even better than tap water? To test this, you would take several numbered glasses, fill them with the different waters, and have test subjects taste the waters. There is no need to have a "control" group, because there is nothing to control against (there is no placebo effect). It is merely a comparison test. The test is "blind" if the taster does not know what water is in which glass. It is "double-blind" if, during the tasting phase, the proctor administering the test also does not know.

Case 2: Listening test. Does any particular speaker cable really "sound" better than others, or even better than zip wire? To test this, you would use something called an "ABX" box which switches the speaker signal between 2 cables, and have test subjects listen to music. The ABX box has 3 selections: cable A, cable B, and "X". When A or B is selected, then you obviously know which cable is being used. But the "X" position randomly selects A or B, and you have to look at a hidden indicator to see which it selected. Again, there is no need to have a "control" group, because there is nothing to control against. It is merely a comparison test. The test is "blind" if the listener does not know what cable has been selected. It is "double-blind" if, during the listening phase, the proctor administering the test also does not know.

These are well-known and well-accepted examples of double-blind testing that do not fit your very narrow definition. Similarly, a dowsing test is blind if the dowser does not know the actual location of the target. It is "double-blind" if, during the dowsing phase, the proctor administering the test also does not know. Is that really too difficult to understand?

I do agree with you, that my test will only show whether the person being tested can or cannot use his LRL (or dowse). But it's worth $25,000, for the person who "can". And, I've generally noticed, those who "cannot" tend to argue at length about how my test is unfair. You are welcomed to suggest your own test, which was the whole purpose of this thread.

- Carl

Posted on: Today at 06:00:38 AMPosted by: Carl-NC


These tests where set up to be used on a group of people. Do you think it would be a fair test to administer to one person? I doubt that the scientific community would even consider it.

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl

If these tests are opinion based, how would they apply to your test?

I was using the double-blind product comparison tests as examples that do not fit Art's narrow definition of double-blind testing. Yet, they are double-blind, to eliminate bias. But they don't require placing people in control groups, which normally is used only when a placebo effect is involved.

These tests where set up to be used on a group of people. Do you think it would be a fair test to administer to one person? I doubt that the scientific community would even consider it.

When testing a product claim, you would normally run these tests on a group of people. That is, if Aquafina claimed to be the "best-tasting" bottled water, you would take a bunch of people, and have them taste Aquafina along with a bunch of other waters (double-blind, of course), and see if Aquafina is the preferred brand.

But suppose a single person said, "I can easily tell the difference between Monster Cable, and twin-lead speaker wire." Then you could administer several trials of the ABX test to that one person, and test his claim. If he consistently identifies the cable-under-test correctly, then you could say his claim is true. But if his results are correct only about 50% of the time (assuming only two cables to choose from), then his claim is false.

As you can see, there are lots and lots of ways to administer a double-blind test, depending on what the claim is. This is why Randi leaves the test definition wide open.

- Carl

 

[Rich NY]

Carl

What you have been saying is dowsing is no better than chance guessing. I say dowsing is better. Let's say we take a fresh plowed cornfield and plant 10 silver dollars before it is raked. Than rake it. That way nobody is going to see any signs of any targets. The dowser uses his rods and the guesser just guesses. I going to put my money on the dowser every time.

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl

What you have been saying is dowsing is no better than chance guessing. I say dowsing is better. Let's say we take a fresh plowed cornfield and plant 10 silver dollars before it is raked. Than rake it. That way nobody is going to see any signs of any targets. The dowser uses his rods and the guesser just guesses. I going to put my money on the dowser every time.

That can be made into a fair test, though a number of details would need to be agreed on (I wrote a pretty thorough post on this recently).

So are you saying that if a silver dollar is laid on the ground, right in front of you, in plain view, that you cannot dowse its location?

- Carl

 

[Rich NY]

Carl

If it was in plain view,I wouldn't have to dowse it.

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl

If it was in plain view,I wouldn't have to dowse it.

True, but could you? If I cover it with a paper plate, could you still dowse it's location?

 

[Goldminer]

Carl et al, this is not to be construed as a DB test, but I would like to know if it would be considered a test that shows dowsing CAN work.
A national magazine reporter, who is 300 miles away from my location at the time, hides 300 coins on a beach. I do not return to the area for another 8 days. Upon arriving, I am told that the coins have been hidden, and that the location of the area is approximately at MM75. There is a beach on one side of the hwy., and a field on the other side. I decide to dowse the beach, and position myself facing the ocean. Using L-rods, I get an indication that a target is to my left, and following the given signal, I come to an area about 150 yards from where I started where the rods no longer cross. After pin-pointing an area of about three feet square, I use a metal detector and find 300 coins at the location. The reporter was not present at the attempt, and the observer was with me 300 miles away when the coins were buried.
All I am asking here is, did I dowse the location, or was it random chance?
Bill

 

[aarthrj3811]

It would be nice to know what the odds of someone finding a single silver coin buried in a corn field just by guessing where it is. Don't give us some talk about 350 years of math being right. The odd's of anyone guessing the the location of the coins buried in a corn field consistently is a lot closer to 0% than it is to 50%....Art

 

[Rich NY]

Carl

If it was in plain view,I wouldn't have to dowse it.

True, but could you? If I cover it with a paper plate, could you still dowse it's location?

Carl

I would not want anything hid under a paper plate. It sets you up for suggestion. I would want to go out in a field knowing that 10 targets are buried in the field and I have no idea where they are. The power of suggestion would more or less turn it in to a guessing game. That's why I don't like your plate test.

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl

If it was in plain view,I wouldn't have to dowse it.

True, but could you? If I cover it with a paper plate, could you still dowse it's location?

Carl

I would not want anything hid under a paper plate. It sets you up for suggestion. I would want to go out in a field knowing that 10 targets are buried in the field and I have no idea where they are. The power of suggestion would more or less turn it in to a guessing game. That's why I don't like your plate test.

OK. Fair enough.

 

[Carl-NC]

It would be nice to know what the odds of someone finding a single silver coin buried in a corn field just by guessing where it is. Don't give us some talk about 350 years of math being right. The odd's of anyone guessing the the location of the coins buried in a corn field consistently is a lot closer to 0% than it is to 50%....Art

Sure is. The odds will depend on the size of the field, and the size of the hole you dig to recover the coin.

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl et al, this is not to be construed as a DB test, but I would like to know if it would be considered a test that shows dowsing CAN work.
A national magazine reporter, who is 300 miles away from my location at the time, hides 300 coins on a beach. I do not return to the area for another 8 days. Upon arriving, I am told that the coins have been hidden, and that the location of the area is approximately at MM75. There is a beach on one side of the hwy., and a field on the other side. I decide to dowse the beach, and position myself facing the ocean. Using L-rods, I get an indication that a target is to my left, and following the given signal, I come to an area about 150 yards from where I started where the rods no longer cross. After pin-pointing an area of about three feet square, I use a metal detector and find 300 coins at the location. The reporter was not present at the attempt, and the observer was with me 300 miles away when the coins were buried.
All I am asking here is, did I dowse the location, or was it random chance?
Bill

VERY interesting! The answer is: I don't know.

I have seen and heard of a lot of dowsing successes, but I can usually recognize factors that might have contributed more to the success, than did dowsing. In all the successes I know about, only 2 of them really stand out as being well beyond any expected probability of success due to luck. Yours is better than most, but not nearly as good as those two.

- Carl

 

[Goldminer]

Oh believe me Carl, I have many, many more. The one I just posted is one that I can readily prove, because I have copies of the original article written by the reporter. How about a shipwreck that I dowsed from the shore of a Caribbean island while many people looked on. (the wreck was in 70 ft. of water, and I had never been to that island in my life)
Bill

 

[Amona]

Carl
I met with a friend,couple years ago, when he found in a beach in Delaware two Gold coins with those machine MFD? Long range? He used "coat hangers?" ,....just right in shore!! !!

Amona

 

[Carl-NC]

I met with a friend,couple years ago, when he found in a beach in Delaware two Gold coins with those machine MFD? Long range? He used "coat hangers?" ,....just right in shore!! !!

Two or three years ago a fellow posted 2 gold coins right here on TNet, saying that he found them with an LRL. Turns out that the "Pirates of the Caribbean" souvenir shop sold the exact same coins, so I bought one. Is this the same fellow?

 

[Amona]

Carl

I don't know if my Fellow's coins are the same than the "Pirates of Caribbean" souvenir shop, replica or not, the true is I had been in the Mel Fisher's Museum at Key west and I had seen true Spanish coins and replica in the souvenir shops around the museum, and they are very identical, now,how you gonna see the difference between replica and original one for your PC monitor?

Amona

 

[Carl-NC]

...now,how you gonna see the difference between replica and original one for your PC monitor?

Spanish cobs were sliced from a bar, hand-stamped, and the edges trimmed for proper weight. Therefore, each one is unique in both the strike and the shape. Reproductions are machine made, and are copied from an original, so a given original cob and all its reproductions will look identical.

The fellow's name was Sam Rosario, and the gold coins he claimed to have found were absolutely identical to reproductions sold by Disney World. So either his coins were fake, or they were the original coins from which the reproductions were copied. The latter is not possible if his claim of finding them on a beach is true, so therefore his claim must be false. The coins were fakes.

- Carl

 

[Amona]

The latter is not possible if his claim of finding them on a beach is true, so therefore his claim must be false. The coins were fakes.

My MD can detect real coins and fake coins too. The issue here with you Carl-C is you personal agenda against those machine,manufacturer and user and that it's really insane.

I believe,in the future those machine will be improved enough as locate with accuracy any real coins or fake from a long distance. Meanwhile I use My MD and Deepseeker only.

About Fake,... we're living in a world of fakes, high rate property insurance,illegal immigrant hunt and terrorism whatelse

Amona

 

[Carl-NC]

The issue here with you Carl-C is you personal agenda against those machine,manufacturer and user and that it's really insane.

No, the issue here is that LRLs don't work. And, like many others before you, you're trying to blame me.

I believe,in the future those machine will be improved enough as locate with accuracy any real coins or fake from a long distance. Meanwhile I use My MD and Deepseeker only.

Could be... but right now, they can't detect real or fake coins.

About Fake,... we're living in a world of fakes, high rate property insurance,illegal immigrant hunt and terrorism whatelse

And are you saying that because fraud exists, it is acceptable? I disagree.

- Carl