Drilled antler atl-weight?

[figgins diggins]

This is the second of these we have found while fossil hunting. I sold one almost exactly like this one last year. Regretted it of course, because I thought it had the potential to be a pretty significant find, and figured I would never see another. Needed the extra $$$ a little more at the time if you know what I mean.

My son found this one day before yesterday. Unique in itself but practically identical in size, shape, weight, and was found within a few hundred yards of the first. Any information greatly appreciated. Can't find much on the internet about antler artifacts. Don't think the hole got in one, much less two alike, by accident.

My theory is that it has the potential to predate the stone spearthrower weights, simply because antler would have been easier to drill. We find many bones from animals such as bison antiquus, camels, and even mastodon that were part of the mass extinction around 10,000 years ago in this exact area. I will include some of our fossil finds over in the fossil department for comparison.

 

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[figgins diggins]

another view

 

[figgins diggins]

another view

 

[figgins diggins]

the old in the hand view, let us know what you think!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

figgins diggins, I can't recall the exact term used for those, but they aren't Atl Atl weights or Bannerstones. They were actually used as a Shaft Straightening tool. I'll see if I can find a picture of one for you.

Very nice and rare find. You say you have two of them. Man that is really rare.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Here's a picture and a link to the article about these. They are called Shaft Wrenches and were used to straighten arrow shafts.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...er+antler+shaft+straightener&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G

 

[figgins diggins]

Hey Dorkfish, I appreciate your information and opinion on my son's antler tool, whatever it may be. I will say that it could be any number of things besides a weight, including a shaft straitener, but I would go towards some kind of handle for a tool, before I went shaft straitener. Wouldn't you agree ,though, that the item with two drilled holes which you pointed out, could also be any number of things besides an "arrow wrench". Could have been a child's whirling toy since it has two holes. Could have easily been called a gorget. Shaft Straightener is, after all , just what one archeologist or small group decided to call this particular artifact.
.

It is my opinion that "shaft straightener" has been a pretty generic term for any grooved or drilled item that some professional archeologist cannot or would not otherwise identify. The only items I have ever seen that I thought had a chance of being shaft straighteners were grooved stones. Most of those in reality were only used to sharpen bone for needles or awls. NOne of them would be capable of straightening any shafts, but could perhaps knock off a few burrs if rubbed along its length.

My thinking is that if mr. Native American started out with a crooked stick to make a shaft for spear or arrow, he was already in trouble. I would like to hear some solid theory behind the shaft-straighteners and how they worked or how they were used. There is no hard evidence of such that I know of. If there is a cave painting of such or maybe a late 19th century photograph I would love to see it. Pretty much all theory. I think the process goes something like ," we decided this is what this item is, but we have no real basis for this decision, other than we don't really know what it is and shaft straightener sounds pretty good plus it's been used to describe other drilled items." I Would really like to hear how they theorize such a tool could make a crooked stick, straighten out, and stay straight. I have seen guys use bannerstones and spearthrowers, but not one of these shaft wrenches.

Not saying that your assessment of this artifact is wrong, I appreciate the response and I am always willing to learn. I think you may just be misinformed or are putting a little too much faith in what "professionals" say. I am only saying that I will never agree with something just because some professional archeologist said it. No matter how many more years they went to college than I or how much experience they have in the field, they can be wrong, and have been proven so. The only thing professional archeologists have proven to me is their intense dislike for amateur archeologists. I know several old time diggers, who the professionals refer to as looters, who know more about native americans than most professionals will ever know. I think professionals use the term "shaft straightener" more as a cop-out to avoid trying to truly identify all the drilled and grooved tools which were used for countless other chores, toys, and decoration. It's just an easy out for them. Most may never be identified and are doomed to remain whatever a particular professional chooses to call them. A shame but, Probably impossible to identify them all I would think.

Thanks again for your response, and if you have access to some harder evidence or better documentation of native americans and shaft straighteners I would enjoy seeing it . I think there is much more solid theory backing spearthrowers and weights whether this be one or not. Learning new stuff is one thing I love about treasure hunting. I have been wrong many times, but have also learned that just because no one has seen one yet, or the biggest collector in the country doesn't own one, or its not in a book or on the net, doesn't mean it don't exist.
I have no problem admitting I could be wrong, and no offense is intended towards you. I just like a little more discussion, and a few more opinions before drawing such a definite final conclusion.
Very Respectfully,
Dan

 

[MEinWV]

Neat looking piece you have there! It doesn't seem to me that it would have enough weight to be used for that purpose. I don't know, maybe I am wrong about that.

I just did a search using the words "primitive arrow shaft straightener", and came up with a number of sites that deal with the subject and there are several pics of varying styles. Several methods (green as well as dry shafts)are shown and explained They don't seem to be saying that they are definitely sure about there usage, but that it is a "best good guess". In fact, I saw where there are aboriginal tribes out there that are these days still using almost identical items to straighten arrows.

I love to see all the non-point artifacts everyone is finding. Thanks for showing us! HH

 

[Rege-PA]

The Shaft straighteners that look like a wrench were used to put pressure on a heated and possibly steamed stick which would cause the wood fibers to take a set in that direction. Finding a truly straight stick for arrow or atlatl use must have been difficult and these tools probably made the job easier. Even straight pieces will tend to warp after a period of time due to atmospheric conditions (rainy weather or periods of drought) if not properly sealed.
Perhaps they did rub fat or wax or some other sealant to help prevent this from happening, it always amazes me at the small hole in banner stones and the length of the shaft used, estimated to be near 9 feet without vanes and 5 feet with some kind of feathers or vanes. In any case this type of tool would be useful to keep them flying accurately. Granted more research is needed and perhaps some of these items had multiple uses.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

figgins diggins, I understand what you are saying, but if you think about it almost every artifact we find has been assumed to be used for this or that. Bannerstones are assumed to be Atl Atl weights, but has one ever actually been found on an Atl Atl. Plummets, Cones, and numerous other artifacts are assumed to be used as this or that by the archaeological community and I'm sure they are wrong on some and right on others. I guess what I'm saying is I agree with you to a point but I was just stating what is the common assertion of these pieces.

 

[figgins diggins]

You are exactly right on that Dorkfish. Lot of misconceptions about artifacts have been around a long time. Just about everyone you meet who has done some arrowhead collecting believes that the blades they are finding are arrowheads. Very few of them are actually arrowheads or even spearheads. I would venture to say at least 9 of 10 "arrowheads" found are knifeblades or maybe at best a very few are combination projectile/knifeblades. Convincing most people of this would be like talking to a wall. Arrowhead or Spear just has a more appealing sound and seems more interesting or exotic. I used to find true arrowheads pretty regularly on a couple of mississippian sites, but over on the sand and older sites I may find one blade in twenty that I thought was symmetrical or well enough made to have a chance at being projectile material. A true arrowhead on most older sites cannot be found unless it was visited by a passerby at a later time or occupied through later times.

Truth be known, It took hundreds times more knifes for work, cutting up the kill, or other utilities than it did to kill the animal. You can kill with a sharpened stick, but hard to carve up a bison with one. I bet everyone had at least one knife which would compare to our modern day pocket knife, and I bet some of the gals had a whole set of kitchen knifes, with a different style/size knife for every job. Many of them were resharpened periodically too, just as modern steel knifes.

I looked at a site http://www.thunderbirdatlatl.com/?cat=8 which backs up what you say about atl weights altogether. There is actually only one case where they were found in situ with spearthrowers, in Tennessee, and it says in this day and time the conclusion drawn would be highly suspect. This guy's theory is that they were all basically spindle whirls. Used to produce the string for hafting. Really makes sense but goes against what thousands of people have believed for many years. I am gonna include a picture of a stone I found at this site which I had decided was a spindle whirl. I will be back with that in a minute.

But agreed we all can learn something new every day if we have an open mind. No need to draw any quick conclusions about anything someone finds. You just never really know, no matter how much we may think we know. I had no idea before tonite that there was any doubt about bannerstones being atl-weights. Sometimes I like to think I know a little more than the next guy, but shoot, I don't know nothing. As for the weight of this antler referred to in one post, it weighs a little over 4 ounces, and the average weight of bannerstones according to this fella is 3 ounces, though some are much heavier.

Still worthy of some discussion I think, and I appreciate all you guys contributing to the attempt at identifying this antler/tool. It and many others may never be definitely identified. Anybody else? Atl weight probably is just wishful thinking, or is it? Thanks everyone.

respectfully, Dan

 

[figgins diggins]

Here is a picture of a rock from the same area which I "identified" as being a spindle whirl. It compared very favorably to one in a book at the library. Hole is a lot smaller than the hole in the antler though. It weighs a little over three ounces. One of my friends who doesn't collect and thinks I am crazy told me it was just a grindin' wheel that some welder dropped in the river. For all I know he's the one who's right. Fun stuff guys, seems like a lot of good people on this end of the forum. I will try to get a picture of my favorite "arrowheads" on before long.

Dan

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Dan, I hear what your saying about the Arrowhead/Spearhead debate. If I had a dollar for every time I've had to explain to someone that what they have is actually a Knife and not a Spearhead or an Arrowhead I could retire and live every comfortably. lol I had a guy argue with me until he was blue in the face that the 4 inch point he had was a Knife and not a Spearhead. He just couldn't get it through his head that it was to big to be thrown at any distance. Most of your true Spearheads, or Dart Points as I like to call them, were rather on the smallish side and hafted on a shaft to be thrown with an Atl Atl to get the sufficient force to penetrate tough hides, but most people just don't get that.

As for your Spindle Whorl, if I had found that on one of Ft Ancient sites I would consider it a small Discoidal. I have a few just like it and never really considered the Spindle Whorl idea, but now that you bring it up they very well could be just that.

Nice conversing with you Dan. It's nice to have another knowledgeable poster on here who can hold an intelligent conversation about artifacts. There are quite a few very knowledgeable folks on here who know there stuff and one more never hurts. It's a heck of lot better than the ones posting rocks that look like the Virgin Mary. lol

I look forward to more of your posts.

Steve

 

[Rege-PA]

I have found these small discoidals on sites also and thought they were used to make twine by bringing the fiber up through the hole in a twisting fashion, but some of them could have been used as weights on Bow drills as the Eskimo still use today. Some of these discoidals are thick and heavy and rather crudely made while others are small and almost perfectly round. The size of the hole in the center would be a determining factor as to what it`s use might be. A small hole suggests twine, a larger one, a drill weight. Just my opinion.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

figgins diggins, here's some of my Pottery and Stones Discs that just might be Spindle Whorls. What do you think?

 

[*Molly*]

First of all, Welcome Figgins.
I'm still relitively new to collecting, I find this post refreshing, gives us lots to consider. I've always pondered over archeologists labeling certain artifacts as whatever they THINK they were used for, without actual proof, who can be certain. I agree that archeologists & some collectors are far too quick to say certain finds are used for certain uses. This can be frustrating at times, without solid evidence, we can probably think a lot of uses these artifacts could have been used for. I find the term 'bird points' confusing, as ppl are far too quick to label all small points as this. When this term was just picked up in the early days, kinda like a slang term. Seems there were no actual points made for slaying birds was ever proven, most cultures used nets to catch birds.
Also I agree with you about ppl labeling blades/knives as spear points. On the Archaic site I hunt on, I have found three times more blades/knives than projectiles or spear points.
As I say, I am relitively new to collecting/hunting & try to keep an open mind, I enjoy posts like this, gets our imaginations working & we're not just labeling artifacts as to what the archeologists type them as.

Interesting post guys, look foward to reading more of your thoughts.

Molly.

 

[Cannonman17]

Hey Dorkfish, I appreciate your information and opinion on my son's antler tool, whatever it may be. I will say that it could be any number of things besides a weight, including a shaft straitener, but I would go towards some kind of handle for a tool, before I went shaft straitener. Wouldn't you agree ,though, that the item with two drilled holes which you pointed out, could also be any number of things besides an "arrow wrench". Could have been a child's whirling toy since it has two holes. Could have easily been called a gorget. Shaft Straightener is, after all , just what one archeologist or small group decided to call this particular artifact.
.

It is my opinion that "shaft straightener" has been a pretty generic term for any grooved or drilled item that some professional archeologist cannot or would not otherwise identify. The only items I have ever seen that I thought had a chance of being shaft straighteners were grooved stones. Most of those in reality were only used to sharpen bone for needles or awls. NOne of them would be capable of straightening any shafts, but could perhaps knock off a few burrs if rubbed along its length.

My thinking is that if mr. Native American started out with a crooked stick to make a shaft for spear or arrow, he was already in trouble. I would like to hear some solid theory behind the shaft-straighteners and how they worked or how they were used. There is no hard evidence of such that I know of. If there is a cave painting of such or maybe a late 19th century photograph I would love to see it. Pretty much all theory. I think the process goes something like ," we decided this is what this item is, but we have no real basis for this decision, other than we don't really know what it is and shaft straightener sounds pretty good plus it's been used to describe other drilled items." I Would really like to hear how they theorize such a tool could make a crooked stick, straighten out, and stay straight. I have seen guys use bannerstones and spearthrowers, but not one of these shaft wrenches.

Not saying that your assessment of this artifact is wrong, I appreciate the response and I am always willing to learn. I think you may just be misinformed or are putting a little too much faith in what "professionals" say. I am only saying that I will never agree with something just because some professional archeologist said it. No matter how many more years they went to college than I or how much experience they have in the field, they can be wrong, and have been proven so. The only thing professional archeologists have proven to me is their intense dislike for amateur archeologists. I know several old time diggers, who the professionals refer to as looters, who know more about native americans than most professionals will ever know. I think professionals use the term "shaft straightener" more as a cop-out to avoid trying to truly identify all the drilled and grooved tools which were used for countless other chores, toys, and decoration. It's just an easy out for them. Most may never be identified and are doomed to remain whatever a particular professional chooses to call them. A shame but, Probably impossible to identify them all I would think.

Thanks again for your response, and if you have access to some harder evidence or better documentation of native americans and shaft straighteners I would enjoy seeing it . I think there is much more solid theory backing spearthrowers and weights whether this be one or not. Learning new stuff is one thing I love about treasure hunting. I have been wrong many times, but have also learned that just because no one has seen one yet, or the biggest collector in the country doesn't own one, or its not in a book or on the net, doesn't mean it don't exist.
I have no problem admitting I could be wrong, and no offense is intended towards you. I just like a little more discussion, and a few more opinions before drawing such a definite final conclusion.
Very Respectfully,
Dan

I agree 99% with the shaft straighteners but I believe the idea didn't originate with the porfessionals, most goof ups in terms of misidentification started in the private sector with "Uncle Bob" or "Grandpa Jones" who just thought of it and then passed it down from generation to generation as fact. One of the GIGANTIC mistakes of all time in terms of misidentificatin I personally believe was the atl-atl weight or bannerstone. There's no evidence that's what they were used for at all other than one archaeologist who found one in the same grave as an atl atl hook.

 

[mikez]

When people have trouble with the "knife blade vs spear point" question, have them read up on Otzi the Ice Man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi_the_Iceman a ~5000 year old mummy found frozen in a glacier with all his tools. His "pocket knife" was found intact complete with haft. The blade is clearly what most would call an arrowhead.

 

[MEinWV]

Cman, You are right on the money with the "Uncle Bob" angle here!

mikez, good tip! All of us should check out and study up on old Otzi, to get a good understanding of his equipment.

Another great post here. Thanks figgins!

 

[mistergee]

all i know is you guys find the coolest looking stuff......WTG