Dutchman's Caches

[markmar]

Some say the cache is in the mine. I don't think so.. Makes sense he put it in the cave with his tools as he said it was so well hidden. Why the emphasis to find the cave. He obviously thought the cave was good enough to hide his tools safely without losing them. Once they had the cache and the tools from the cave, they could then find the mine. If they couldn't find the mine atleast had the cache. Just my take. I've always believed the cave is the key some way or another. Is my cave "the cave" . Don't know till I go in. But entrance was def man made. Cant wait to see what's in the 2nd room.

There is a post on the other forum. That describes my cave to a T. Makes me wonder if said poster had been there as there, as no other place I've see info he had described anywhere else. Granted I wasn't looking for the ldm, but the mine behind the ear of the horse on the h/p. Stumbled on the cave by accident.

Actually the third cache still be in the outcrop mine. The cave/passage where Waltz and others before him used to deposit their tools, was covered over with rocks an dust by the Apaches in the winter of 1882. They took all the tools and threw them in the LDM inclined shaft, before concealing it too. The Apache haven't covered the outcrop because they believed nobody would be able to find it at the place was located.The cave/passage is covered only above, at the entrance from the saddle. This is the reason nobody could find the " trick in the trail ' so many years.
Waltz covered only the tunnel below the outcrop ( also the tunnel from Perfil mapa ), because was visible from below. For this reason planted a Juniper to hide the outcrop.
When Waltz went there for the last time in regards to cover the outcrop and to take the last small cache dug out from the inclined shaft, found the inclined shaft and the passage covered over. He left the big cache dug out from the outcrop in its own source for a later time, because was not able to carry both caches.

 

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[Idahodutch]

Actually the third cache still be in the outcrop mine. The cave/passage where Waltz and others before him used to deposit their tools, was covered over with rocks an dust by the apaches in the winter of 1882. They took all the tools and threw them in the LDM inclined shaft, before concealing it too. The Apache haven't covered the outcrop because they believed nobody would be able to find it at the place was located.The cave/passage is covered only above, at the entrance from the saddle. This is the reason nobody could find the " trick in the trail ' so many years.
Waltz covered only the tunnel below the outcrop ( also the tunnel from Perfil mapa ), because was visible from below. For this reason planted a Juniper to hide the outcrop.
When Waltz went there for the last timein regards to cover the outcrop and to take the last small cache dug out from the inclined shaft, found the inclined shaft and the passage covered over. He left the big cache dug out from the outcrop in its own source for a later time, because was not able to carry both caches.

Good morning Markmar,
I have heard much of this before, and it is very intriguing. My thoughts are that you have applied this information to the area you believe, and it makes sense to you. I am not doubting that at all.
That is what is so intriguing, is that the information seems too easy to apply to more than one location, with interesting results, but yet it seems as though much of it does.

Was most of this information (clues) from one source/book?
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Pure speculation on my part, but I think Waltz May have given Julia directions to get to the cache that was on top of the outcrop mine. For Holmes, I think Waltz May have given final instructions from the hidden camp .... not to the cache, but to the inclined shaft mine, up above.
A much harder endeavor to even get to. . . . Unless Waltz has given you the alternate route.

After much discussion, we?ve kind of come to conclusion, that access to the upper inclined shaft mine, is least difficult, if dropping into the area, from above. A trick in the trail?
There is a natural slide of sorts, made of rock, that you just slide down a few feet into the upper corner of ravine. From there, it?s almost solid brush, to where cannot see the ground to navigate.
So simple measurements would suffice.
Waltz probably told Holmes to bring a saw or a machete from the hidden camp

I would agree with Skyhawk, that Waltz just figured the southern route would be best for Julia. There was probably a last instruction for Julia as well, because the big rocks used to cover the outcrop mine, are big and heavy.
Maybe a secret access point, just moving a few smaller rocks, and bingo
Who knows. Need more time to investigate better.

Skyhawk,
There is another reason, I am of the thought that Waltz gave directions; to the outcrop mine/cache, to Julia, but the inclined shaft mine above, to Holmes.
It has to do with what information each of the two camps ultimately decided to withhold.
For Julia, the way to locate Waltz hidden camp/roofless rock house, in shallow cave, but gave info on relation between locations of hidden camp and outcrop mine.
For Holmes, sharing how to locate the hidden camp, was not viewed as giving away too much, ... if was targeting the upper shaft mine, that info was as well as how to find it.
Just my opinion, but like you said earlier, usually there are reasons why folk do, or do not do things.

 

[Doc4261]

Actually the third cache still be in the outcrop mine. The cave/passage where Waltz and others before him used to deposit their tools, was covered over with rocks an dust by the apaches in the winter of 1882. They took all the tools and threw them in the LDM inclined shaft, before concealing it too. The Apache haven't covered the outcrop because they believed nobody would be able to find it at the place was located.The cave/passage is covered only above, at the entrance from the saddle. This is the reason nobody could find the " trick in the trail ' so many years.
Waltz covered only the tunnel below the outcrop ( also the tunnel from Perfil mapa ), because was visible from below. For this reason planted a Juniper to hide the outcrop.
When Waltz went there for the last timein regards to cover the outcrop and to take the last small cache dug out from the inclined shaft, found the inclined shaft and the passage covered over. He left the big cache dug out from the outcrop in its own source for a later time, because was not able to carry both caches.

Markmar,

As easy as it is to get to the perfil area from the north. I will repeat it's not the LDM. There is no possible way. I have no doubt people on this forum have been to the end of the perfil map. As easy as it wound be to say it is the Ldm. It just don't fit. Perfil map won't get ya there. Julia's map won't get ya there. Holmes map will get ya as close I do believe. Nothing like I believe as the h/p. I went a different direction to get my answers to the ldm, even tho I wasn't looking for it, it was always in the back of my mind. I went for the hardest to find as the others are all below. 2 I don't know how to get to, but have one on video. One other is gravy to find ,if I ever get lazy. Easier than the perfil map just a longer trip to get there.

 

[azdave35]

Markmar,

As easy as it is to get to the perfil area from the north. I will repeat it's not the LDM. There is no possible way. I have no doubt people on this forum have been to the end of the perfil map. As easy as it wound be to say it is the Ldm. It just don't fit. Perfil map won't get ya there. Julia's map won't get ya there. Holmes map will get ya as close I do believe. Nothing like I believe as the h/p. I went a different direction to get my answers to the ldm, even tho I wasn't looking for it, it was always in the back of my mind. I went for the hardest to find as the others are all below. 2 I don't know how to get to, but have one on video. One other is gravy to find ,if I ever get lazy. Easier than the perfil map just a longer trip to get there.

that perfil map fits about a million places all over the country...while we are at it we might as well say the world....i have seen a few places in and out of the supers that it fits very well

 

[Doc4261]

that perfil map fits about a million places all over the country...while we are at it we might as well say the world....i have seen a few places in and out of the supers that it fits very well

That's the beauty of choice. Everyone can believe what they want. I know what I believe. I don't have to manipulate anything to make the perfil map fit. Its pretty well clear as day. To each their own. Its not even something I care about, or was looing for. Just shared to shed some light.

 

[skyhawk1251]

One important thing to remember ... Waltz left the last, and largest cache, for an older version of himself. He would have made it retrievable for an old man ... -- Idahodutch

An excellent, and very logical, conclusion. I don't think Waltz ever had an intention of uncapping the mine himself, but he wanted to leave it concealed so that he could pass the wealth on to someone of his choice, rather than risking a claim jumper stealing the gold. His age was working against him, and he knew he couldn't do hard-rock mining any longer. He did, however, leave a large, easily accessible cache for a "rainy day." Most probably that cache was at, or very near, the mine, just in case his plans didn't work out and he couldn't retrieve it. The cache could then be found by one of his adopted heirs. Waltz was definitely a crafty, old coot.

 

[Doc4261]

Some say the cache is in the mine. I don't think so.. Makes sense he put it in the cave with his tools as he said it was so well hidden. Why the emphasis to find the cave. He obviously thought the cave was good enough to hide his tools safely without losing them. Once they had the cache and the tools from the cave, they could then find the mine. If they couldn't find the mine atleast had the cache. Just my take. I've always believed the cave is the key some way or another. Is my cave "the cave" . Don't know till I go in. But entrance was def man made. Cant wait to see what's in the 2nd room.
View attachment 1928895

There is a post on the other forum. That describes my cave to a T. Makes me wonder if said poster had been there as there, as no other place I've see info he had described anywhere else. Granted I wasn't looking for the ldm, but the mine behind the ear of the horse on the h/p. Stumbled on the cave by accident.

A view of where my cave in regards to the mine im looking for. As you can see its a ways off.


Inside the cave, there is 2 branches. One illuminated by a top hole on the left that goes to a crack in the earth, from my estimates as I only got to see from top hole is about a foot or 2 wide. The other branch to the right is what im more interested in. Also in pic some stacked rocks to by my best guess to to block water from getting out of a shallow pool.



This is how the cave looks from outside with highlighted the hole from above that illuminated the left branch of cave.



The only reason I found it was I was looking at a red outcrop of dacite from looking from above down a water crevasse.


There are def some interesting stuff on the walls of the cave. One is what looks to be a quartz vein that runs across the top of the cave, obviously didn't erode like the reset of cave and the other is this before the vein in red rock. Of coarse this is speculation as I haven't been in said cave for verification.




My guides walled up tunnel he found is located somewhere about here, but could of been the one I was looking for. Wont know till I try to find it myself.

 

[Ponteach]

Why anybody pay attention to the german clues?
Waltz words from Julia and Rhinehart,
( i used two of the Mexican's holes )
( i dug two of my own )
( from the cave you can see all of them )
now if there is only two of them, he would have said, i can see both of them ... maybe im wrong,
the caches from the Mexican's, already full so he needed to dig two more
+ the one large cache

 

[Idahodutch]

Why anybody pay attention to the german clues?
Waltz words from Julia and Rhinehart,
( i used two of the Mexican's holes )
( i dug two of my own )
( from the cave you can see all of them )
now if there is only two of them, he would have said, i can see both of them ... maybe im wrong,
the caches from the Mexican's, already full so he needed to dig two more
+ the one large cache

Ponteach,
It is a little vague .... I have wondered about that as well.
- 2 caches by Peralta remnants
- 2 small caches by Waltz and Weiser
- 1 large cache by Waltz

I do not have information about the 2 by the Peralta guys, other than like you pointed out, Visible from ??
Is it cave .... hidden camp ....
There are work areas, besides the hidden camp.
Areas that are closer to the Upper shaft mine.
I could visualize someone resting, and looking around for good spots for caches, from one of those work places.
Some sources of clues seem very reliable, and other sources seem hit and miss.

 

[markmar]

Why anybody pay attention to the german clues?
Waltz words from Julia and Rhinehart,
( i used two of the Mexican's holes )
( i dug two of my own )
( from the cave you can see all of them )
now if there is only two of them, he would have said, i can see both of them ... maybe im wrong,
the caches from the Mexican's, already full so he needed to dig two more
+ the one large cache

Waltz meant he dug two of the Mexican's mines ( the inclined shaft and the outcrop which had a tunnel started below ), and dug two other holes to hide his caches. The third remains in one of the two Mexican holes/mines.
The cave is the passage on the saddle and not the shallow cave from the camp across the gulch. From the camp someone can see only the outcrop mine location, which is the first thing someone can see across the gulch.
From the shallow cave to the edge of the gulch is a short distance and is flat, so if the caches would been at the camp side of the gulch , then the caches wouldn't been hidden from sight each other.

 

[rk85044]

what about slim kite's clue... one of the 100 fit in?
"from the mine looking north...down to left of the hill ....you will see some red spots
one cache is buried underneath one?

so according to marius.... the mine entrance on a 12 foot ledge at the lip of a cliff either behind a juniper or a dead one...
is where one looks north? Correct??

 

[Idahodutch]

Waltz meant he dug two of the Mexican's mines ( the inclined shaft and the outcrop which had a tunnel started below ), and dug two other holes to hide his caches. The third remains in one of the two Mexican holes/mines.
The cave is the passage on the saddle and not the shallow cave from the camp across the gulch. From the camp someone can see only the outcrop mine location, which is the first thing someone can see across the gulch.
From the shallow cave to the edge of the gulch is a short distance and is flat, so if the caches would been at the camp side of the gulch , then the caches wouldn't been hidden from sight each other.

Markmar,
I believe Waltz said what he meant to say. No need to change his words, Unless You know better than Waltz?

Idahodutch

 

[Doc4261]

what about slim kite's clue... one of the 100 fit in?
"from the mine looking north...down to left of the hill ....you will see some red spots
one cache is buried underneath one?

so according to marius.... the mine entrance on a 12 foot ledge at the lip of a cliff either behind a juniper or a dead one...
is where one looks north? Correct??

Never heard that clue before. Interesting.

 

[Idahodutch]

what about slim kite's clue... one of the 100 fit in?
"from the mine looking north...down to left of the hill ....you will see some red spots
one cache is buried underneath one?

so according to marius.... the mine entrance on a 12 foot ledge at the lip of a cliff either behind a juniper or a dead one...
is where one looks north? Correct??

Rk,
The clue you refer to from Slim Kite; All I could find about the name, was a cowboy poet.
Slim Kite passed away 1995 .... was born 1906.
Nothing about LDM.

The clue itself is not one I recall ever reading before.
You are saying One of 100 fit in?? I am reading that as some sort of reference for the clue, but I am not following the crumbs you left

As far as locating a cache.... it might be good to know why or how this Slim Kite, is someone in the know concerning locating a cache of gold from the LDM.

Can you enlighten us ..... please
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[rk85044]

 

[Idahodutch]

View attachment 1929692

Thanks rk,
That helps. I have not read that book, so not able to give informed response.
There are others here that may be in better position to speak to that.

Three red spots on left side of the hill/canyon looking north from his mine.
There are two mines in there that Waltz worked.

The 2 mines are not that far apart, more difference in elevation, which could impact the views.
You might have to go in and check it out

Thanks again for posting the response.
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

what about slim kite's clue... one of the 100 fit in?
"from the mine looking north...down to left of the hill ....you will see some red spots
one cache is buried underneath one?

so according to marius.... the mine entrance on a 12 foot ledge at the lip of a cliff either behind a juniper or a dead one...
is where one looks north? Correct??

Correct.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Rk,
The clue you refer to from Slim Kite; All I could find about the name, was a cowboy poet.
Slim Kite passed away 1995 .... was born 1906.
Nothing about LDM.

The clue itself is not one I recall ever reading before.
You are saying One of 100 fit in?? I am reading that as some sort of reference for the clue, but I am not following the crumbs you left

As far as locating a cache.... it might be good to know why or how this Slim Kite, is someone in the know concerning locating a cache of gold from the LDM.

Can you enlighten us ..... please
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Idahodutch,

Slim Kites clues sound a lot like the Holmes clues because Kite was a friend of Dick Holmes, Dick's wife Martha and son Brownie. Kite wrote down his clues from conversations with the Holmes family. He gained a lot of new information when he spoke with Martha Holmes after Dick Holmes death. Kite was a wrangler who worked on several ranches and also knew Herman and Rhiney Petrasch so his information cannot be disregarded.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,

Slim Kites clues sound a lot like the Holmes clues because Kite was a friend of Dick Holmes, Dick's wife Martha and son Brownie. Kite wrote down his clues from conversations with the Holmes family. He gained a lot of new information when he spoke with Martha Holmes after Dick Holmes death. Kite was a wrangler who worked on several ranches and also knew Herman and Rhiney Petrasch so his information cannot be disregarded.

Matthew,
Thanks for the explanation.
Lots of interesting tidbits been surfacing lately.
Might be a busy autumn and winter in there this year.

I Hope the monsoons bring plenty of rain.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch