Eagle lead seal?

Brian in MA · Nov 2, 2010

Hi all,

I posted this in the 'Today's Finds' section and someone there suggested I post it here as well in hopes of getting an ID.

It's a lead cloth seal with an eagle on one side and some hand carved letters and numbers on the other. It's about the size of a half dollar.

Was hoping someone might have seen a similar one and could provide some info on it? I haven't seen one like it in my 30+ years of hunting. Was wondering (hoping) that it may be military related?

Here are some pics.

Thanks in advance for any info you may provide.

Brian in MA

Woodland Detectors · Nov 2, 2010

I have been looking for yours. Can't find it. Looks like late 18th century. American perhaps.
Bale seals such were single disc seals, rather than two disc seals, and were also used to identify textiles, as well as parcels and bales of trade goods. The obverse would typically display a city's arms, and the reverse would record data such as the length or width of fabric or the weight of a parcel.

Lucas · Nov 2, 2010

All I can say is WOW! I have seen a Detroit Customs seal from the early 1800's, but no eagle on that one.

The numbers look like the ones on cloth seals :icon_scratch:

where the bottom number is the # of yards of the cloth... 28 is in the range I see for Brit cloth.

Silver Searcher · Nov 3, 2010

In George Washington's household account book for 1793 appears an entry showing .... A lead seal was used for the large packages of bulk coffee...could it be :dontknow:

SS

CRUSADER · Nov 5, 2010

Lucas said:
All I can say is WOW! I have seen a Detroit Customs seal from the early 1800's, but no eagle on that one.

The numbers look like the ones on cloth seals where the bottom number is the # of yards of the cloth... 28 is in the range I see for Brit cloth.

That was my first thought

IronSpike · Nov 5, 2010

Very nice seal Brian in MA :icon_sunny:

Here's one like it that MinelabSwinger found:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,273037.0.html

Lucas · Nov 5, 2010

This clearly needs some homework. I did some reading up on the Brit cloth seals a year or so ago. Wool cloth was sealed on each end by law, after it had been fulled (and shrunk). The mark would be the cloth seller's, and the numbers the consecutive piece number for the year over the yardage. Earlier in history, the cloth was sealed by a official, called a alnager. Brit stuff is usually not city marked like other European cloth, because it was still a rural trade, not a urban one.

I see a lot of Brit cloth seals at fur trade sites, but also sometimes other seals, like "Transport Office" or some other official mark, most likely from government gifts to the Indians. Could this be a U.S. version? :dontknow:

Or a import duty cloth seal? :dontknow:

Breezie · Nov 5, 2010

Super find! Breezie

CRUSADER · Nov 6, 2010

Lucas said:
This clearly needs some homework. I did some reading up on the Brit cloth seals a year or so ago. Wool cloth was sealed on each end by law, after it had been fulled (and shrunk). The mark would be the cloth seller's, and the numbers the consecutive piece number for the year over the yardage. Earlier in history, the cloth was sealed by a official, called a alnager. Brit stuff is usually not city marked like other European cloth, because it was still a rural trade, not a urban one.

I see a lot of Brit cloth seals at fur trade sites, but also sometimes other seals, like "Transport Office" or some other official mark, most likely from government gifts to the Indians. Could this be a U.S. version? Or a import duty cloth seal?

I'm pretty sure its a US version, but you guys are best placed to work out what it was sealing (& why, although why is probably for tax & duty purposes & to guarantee quality/consistency) - I think cloth or wool is the most likely $:-\$ Another theory might be material for military uniforms :dontknow:

Lucas · Nov 6, 2010

Breezie, looks like 508 over 28, but I missed those initials! :notworthy:

Reminds me of Govt. inspector's marks on firearms.

Could be military, or other govt., like where I was going with the fur trade rant. :dontknow:

Deepdiger60 · Nov 6, 2010

It looks similar to the reverse of a Draped Bust Half Eagle ?
just my opinion Jim

TheDane · Nov 6, 2010

No doubt ! :icon_thumleft:

A cloth seal. About 1800 would match the style.
Must definately be American.
Could it be a US control / "quality check" seal for imported cloth ?
Normally (on european seals of that time) the numbers on the back are showing the lenght of the cloth in the roll.
Looks similar on european cloth seals of the 17th and 18th century.

If I do not see wrongly, there is still cloth preserved between the two layers of lead? :icon_thumleft:

Very cool find !! :hello2:

Brian in MA · Nov 6, 2010

CRUSADER said:
I'm pretty sure its a US version, but you guys are best placed to work out what it was sealing (& why, although why is probably for tax & duty purposes & to guarantee quality/consistency) - I think cloth or wool is the most likely $:-\$ Another theory might be material for military uniforms

I like this theory :wink:

IronSpike said:
Very nice seal Brian in MA

Here's one like it that MinelabSwinger found:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,273037.0.html

His does appear to be a match to mine. I sent him a PM to see what state he found it in. Have not heard back from him yet.

TheDane said:
If I do not see wrongly, there is still cloth preserved between the two layers of lead?
Very cool find !!

Yes, there is still some cloth between the two layers.

Thanks for all of the replies. This is one of my favorite finds regardless of the fact that I am not really sure what purpose it served. The eagle says it all for me. It will look very nice in one of my displays.

Brian in MA

TheDane · Nov 7, 2010

Hi again

I found this !

Maybe one should look to the Masi Treaty-Seal.
Would date the seal to the years after 1825.
Maybe cloth importers or producers were allowed to use the seal on lead seals.

See Masi Treaty-Seal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States
And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Masi_treaty_seal_Lewis_impression.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MasiTreatySealSkippet.jpg

:read2:

IronSpike · Nov 7, 2010

Deepdiger60 said:
It looks similar to the reverse of a Draped Bust Half Eagle ?
just my opinion Jim

I'm leaning towards this time frame and the image a very good match :icon_thumright:

http://porttobacco.blogspot.com/2010/07/lead-seal-with-merchants-mark.html

As late as 1794 the United East India Company was using metal seals with this style of merchant mark.

MinelabSwinger · Nov 7, 2010

Our seal was found in Upstate NY almost on the Vermont border about 20 minutes from the Mass line. We never found any info on it.... It does appear to be the same seal though. I was thinking of sending a photo in to Ask Mark Parker from WE&T. If you find anything out please send it to me in PM or I will keep watching this thread.