Earliest Clues

[IrishMik]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

 

[coazon de oro]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

Howdy IrishMik, welcome to T-Net, and welcome to the confusion. "Through a break in the mountains, the rays of the setting sun, shine into my mine, and glitter on the gold". You will be better off if you forget everything from the Bark's notes. It came from the most confused, Julia, and Rhiney. Find out how many different sets of Bark's notes are out there, what does that tell you?

 

[IrishMik]

Howdy IrishMik, welcome to T-Net, and welcome to the confusion. "Through a break in the mountains, the rays of the setting sun, shine into my mine, and glitter on the gold". You will be better off if you forget everything from the Bark's notes. It came from the most confused, Julia, and Rhiney. Find out how many different sets of Bark's notes are out there, what does that tell you?

So if the bark notes are tainted where does the clue come from them?
I appreciate the constructive dialogue.
I fully agree Julia and Rhiney were confused. Not necessarily completely clueless on what was said but clueless on application.

 

[markmar]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

Hello IrishMik

From my extensive research, I can say for certain how both clues of the sun position could be applied to the ldm, and this because the mine is located on the south side of a small rocky hill. But remember, not in the early morning because there is big mountain to the east, and not in the late evening because there is a sharp and taller hill to the west.

 

[Cubfan64]

Howdy IrishMik, welcome to T-Net, and welcome to the confusion. "Through a break in the mountains, the rays of the setting sun, shine into my mine, and glitter on the gold". You will be better off if you forget everything from the Bark's notes. It came from the most confused, Julia, and Rhiney. Find out how many different sets of Bark's notes are out there, what does that tell you?

I have no idea whether the Bark "Notes" as they've come to be known are more than stories, but as far as different versions, there's a few I know of, but I've looked at them all and there's very little difference between any of them.

IrishMik - you first have to decide which story you're going to go with. Did Dick Holmes take/steal whatever gold was under Waltz's bed as the "Julia Camp" says happened - thereby making anything the Holmes side of the story suspect at best, or.... did Waltz really give a "death bed confession" to Dick along with whatever directions he could, and then tell him to take the gold from under the bed and help Julia out financially?

Personally I have no idea which is the true story. A fellow known here as cactusjumper passed away a number of years ago, and he used to give advice that I've always thought was pretty good. Don't pay too much attention to words, but rather follow what those first people after Waltz passed away DID. Find out where Julia and Rhiney first went looking, and find out where Dick Holmes went searching and later where his son Brownie started looking first.

 

[IrishMik]

I have no idea whether the Bark "Notes" as they've come to be known are more than stories, but as far as different versions, there's a few I know of, but I've looked at them all and there's very little difference between any of them.

IrishMik - you first have to decide which story you're going to go with. Did Dick Holmes take/steal whatever gold was under Waltz's bed as the "Julia Camp" says happened - thereby making anything the Holmes side of the story suspect at best, or.... did Waltz really give a "death bed confession" to Dick along with whatever directions he could, and then tell him to take the gold from under the bed and help Julia out financially?

Personally I have no idea which is the true story. A fellow known here as cactusjumper passed away a number of years ago, and he used to give advice that I've always thought was pretty good. Don't pay too much attention to words, but rather follow what those first people after Waltz passed away DID. Find out where Julia and Rhiney first went looking, and find out where Dick Holmes went searching and later where his son Brownie started looking first.

I’m operating under the assumption and due to the timing Rhiney and Julia went out they were clueless. This is what makes the early clues even more important. As far as Dick Holmes goes he also had some sort of access to the early clues. Jim Bark interrogated Julia and Rhiney. Triangulating these three sets has been highly productive. I have a site picked out for this fall based on this and the simplicity of waltz. With right ordering of the clues I firmly believe Julia and Rhiney botched the entry. I’m trying to either further validate the theory or blow it up. Appreciate the advice.

 

[coazon de oro]

So if the bark notes are tainted where does the clue come from them?
I appreciate the constructive dialogue.
I fully agree Julia and Rhiney were confused. Not necessarily completely clueless on what was said but clueless on application.

Howdy IrishMik,
If a clue does not come from Waltz, it won't help you find his mine. I just wanted to confirm for you that it's the sunset, not the sunrise. No equinox, or solstice, it's just a break in the mountains.
I have only been here for 16 years, and I have seen clues changed, or made up, just to fit, or justify someone's search area. I had never heard the one about the sunrise, but you can scrap that one off your list.
There are also many different stories that have been mixed into the LDM that have nothing to do with it. Such as A. Ruth's, Kochera, ect ect ect just concentrate on Jacob Waltz's story.

 

[markmar]

IMHO, Holmes clues are accurare if... put them in the right order. There is a small part on the route, which if some details will be changed between each other, then there will be a totally new image of the route and an easiest approach of the said location.
I don't know if I'm ready at this time frame, to reveal the accurate part from the Holmes route to the LDM.

 

[sgtfda]

Howdy IrishMik,
If a clue does not come from Waltz, it won't help you find his mine. I just wanted to confirm for you that it's the sunset, not the sunrise. No equinox, or solstice, it's just a break in the mountains.
I have only been here for 16 years, and I have seen clues changed, or made up, just to fit, or justify someone's search area. I had never heard the one about the sunrise, but you can scrap that one off your list.
There are also many different stories that have been mixed into the LDM that have nothing to do with it. Such as A. Ruth's, Kochera, ect ect ect just concentrate on Jacob Waltz's story.

The same arguments will be going back and forth 100 years from now. The mine was found and cleaned out years ago. There are those living and dead that know and those who don't have a CLUE. But don't worry the are 3 others just like it nearby. The Woodbury's worked them for a while. Ruth had a map on him that showed the location. Tex ended up with that but could not figure it out. They are in a bad area in the wilderness. Jacks new book points the way along with Jesse's.

 

[IrishMik]

Howdy IrishMik,
If a clue does not come from Waltz, it won't help you find his mine. I just wanted to confirm for you that it's the sunset, not the sunrise. No equinox, or solstice, it's just a break in the mountains.
I have only been here for 16 years, and I have seen clues changed, or made up, just to fit, or justify someone's search area. I had never heard the one about the sunrise, but you can scrap that one off your list.
There are also many different stories that have been mixed into the LDM that have nothing to do with it. Such as A. Ruth's, Kochera, ect ect ect just concentrate on Jacob Waltz's story.

That’s what I’m doing with all of it. I’ve come to the same conclusion on many of the accounts. The clues have been altered. Over complicated and flexed. I firmly believe Julia and Rhiney even started off with a wrong order and presuppositions that took them to the wrong area.
For me if the sunset clue is valid it changes my search area from less than 4 acres to about 10 acres. Which when searching for a filled in mine makes a difference.

 

[Idahodutch]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

Hello Irishmik,
Welcome to T-Net.

The story told by Julia to P.C. Bicknell, the one with how Waltz got the the mine, and with directions for the monumented trail, is a solid clue.
The article can still be viewed unchanged. 👍
The monuments were thrown down by Waltz and Weiser according to the same story.

I believe many searchers were successful in getting to the region at the end of that trail, but without signs of a buried mine, I think folk doubted themselves, and figured they got it wrong somehow. 🥴

Then the 2nd bunch of clues that I think are good, (good being the landmarks exist, and can still be found), are the directional clues given by Waltz on his deathbed, to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts.

The third set of clues that I believe is still accurate, are on a map, that appears to be a map that came from Waltz.
It’s called the waltz map.

Changing clues, even a little, or rearranging them, may help fit some scenario, but it will be the wrong scenario.

There is a region that fits all three of those sets of clues, without changing anything. 👍

And one more….. it is the setting sun, thru a break in the mountains.
However, the article speaks of the mine given by the Peralta, and also the one Waltz and Weiser started down below.

The upper mine (up near the top of the arroyo) is unable to have sun shine into it. But the lower mine, before Waltz buried “his mine” it would fit the clue.

The trail to San Carlos, or portions of it are still there, and the Rock Man, the saddle, the view of 4-peaks looking like one peak, the hidden camp (roofless 2 room rock house) is below the view spot…. and “his mine” not more than 200’ directly across the canyon, from the hidden camp.

The shallow cave opening to the north (the hidden camp) suffered damage a couple years ago. It was breached by runoff water from the backside. I got to see it before and after the damage. I actually mourned for the partial loss of a clue. 🥴🤷🏼‍♂️

Good luck Amigo 😁
Idahodutch

 

[IrishMik]

Hello Irishmik,
Welcome to T-Net.

The story told by Julia to P.C. Bicknell, the one with how Waltz got the the mine, and with directions for the monumented trail, is a solid clue.
The article can still be viewed unchanged. 👍
The monuments were thrown down by Waltz and Weiser according to the same story.

I believe many searchers were successful in getting to the region at the end of that trail, but without signs of a buried mine, I think folk doubted themselves, and figured they got it wrong somehow. 🥴

Then the 2nd bunch of clues that I think are good, (good being the landmarks exist, and can still be found), are the directional clues given by Waltz on his deathbed, to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts.

The third set of clues that I believe is still accurate, are on a map, that appears to be a map that came from Waltz.
It’s called the waltz map.

Changing clues, even a little, or rearranging them, may help fit some scenario, but it will be the wrong scenario.

There is a region that fits all three of those sets of clues, without changing anything. 👍

And one more….. it is the setting sun, thru a break in the mountains.
However, the article speaks of the mine given by the Peralta, and also the one Waltz and Weiser started down below.

The upper mine (up near the top of the arroyo) is unable to have sun shine into it. But the lower mine, before Waltz buried “his mine” it would fit the clue.

The trail to San Carlos, or portions of it are still there, and the Rock Man, the saddle, the view of 4-peaks looking like one peak, the hidden camp (roofless 2 room rock house) is below the view spot…. and “his mine” not more than 200’ directly across the canyon, from the hidden camp.

The shallow cave opening to the north (the hidden camp) suffered damage a couple years ago. It was breached by runoff water from the backside. I got to see it before and after the damage. I actually mourned for the partial loss of a clue. 🥴🤷🏼‍♂️

Good luck Amigo 😁
Idahodutch

Do you have a link to that article? Or a link to those clue sets you are counting as good?

 

[Idahodutch]

Do you have a link to that article? Or a link to those clue sets you are counting as good?

I can get you copies, they are all on T-Net, buried in threads.
Give me a few and I’ll post them here. 👍

 

[Idahodutch]

The article by P.C.Bicknell is 5 pages, but a good read imo.




Holmes directions coming next.

 

[Idahodutch]

Here are the Holmes directions posted by another T-Net member.

The 3rd is the Waltz Map.
Up Next.

 

[markmar]

The same arguments will be going back and forth 100 years from now. The mine was found and cleaned out years ago. There are those living and dead that know and those who don't have a CLUE. But don't worry the are 3 others just like it nearby. The Woodbury's worked them for a while. Ruth had a map on him that showed the location. Tex ended up with that but could not figure it out. They are in a bad area in the wilderness. Jacks new book points the way along with Jesse's.View attachment 2219636View attachment 2219637

Good luck with that map Sarge. A Spanish/Mexican treasure map with a big Mormon treasure sings influence. Or otherwise, a Mormon treasure map with Spanish/Mexican treasure codes.
See, Mormons used to put those like flying birds draws on their treasure maps, of course as what they would select from the shapes on the ground in the area of interest.
Now, all the other are Spanish/Mexican treasure codes, like the feathered arrow which means "reverse the image up side down", the mine location which is in the center of the circle which pretends to be a mesa on the map, and all the other drawings (including all crosses} which are only shapes on the ground made by mother Nature.

 

[Idahodutch]

Here is a copy of the Waltz Map,

This one took a while to make heads or tails, but ties it all together. 😉
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

I will say on the directions that we get from Holmes, on the saddle, it talks of a round Indian ruin of rocks.
The saddle didn’t have the round ruin of rocks, but this saddle. Is the only saddle in between the hidden camp, and the 4-peaks view spot, and the one you come to after the left turn at the rock man.

I think maybe the rocks got used to make high hat claim markers. There is a pyramid of rocks stacked up very nicely, near the top of the saddle, maybe the rocks were re-purposed by Dutch hunters filing claims?

I can’t say 🤷🏼‍♂️
Idahodutch

 

[sgtfda]

Good luck with that map Sarge. A Spanish/Mexican treasure map with a big Mormon treasure sings influence. Or otherwise, a Mormon treasure map with Spanish/Mexican treasure codes.
See, Mormons used to put those like flying birds draws on their treasure maps, of course as what they would select from the shapes on the ground in the area of interest.
Now, all the other are Spanish/Mexican treasure codes, like the feathered arrow which means "reverse the image up side down", the mine location which is in the center of the circle which pretends to be a mesa on the map, and all the other drawings (including all crosses} which are only shapes on the ground made by mother Nature.

That arrow flew over your head.

 

[markmar]

That arrow flew over your head.

LOL, I didn't expect another answer from you. Yes, nobody could be safe out there anymore.