Earliest Clues

[cuzimloony]

If you are referring to Robert GarMINs uncle then maybe you can’t point to something solid there. But it has to be beyond speculation.
Then you get into the Holmes vs Patrasch of the account. Which muddies the water and we get into 4th and 5th gen lore/clues.
I’m a bit of an apologist which means outside of 3rd gen it becomes increasingly more probable of variation and embellishment.
I E. Take the King James Translation. This was created from the Latin vulgate. Not the original text. Therefore it’s an interpretation of an interpretation. Or translation of a translation. It loses accuracy and depth.

The king James version was specifically written to RETAIN the mystical meanings of the original text, which is lost on other more scholarly interpretations/translations.
Other versions focus on the meanings of the words only. Only the king James makes an effore to retain the mystic meaning the literal words are hinting at. Your characterization leaves this out, and it's probably the most important factor.

Man..... you sound like me 10 years ago so its hard to be mad. Keep an open mind. Realize that stranger things have happened and may happen again.
Sarge wasn't being mean, he was helping in his own way. Maybe moot because that bridge is burned and gone.
Anyhow......good luck! Maybe Ill see ya out there

 

[cuzimloony]

If you are referring to Robert GarMINs uncle then maybe you can’t point to something solid there. But it has to be beyond speculation.
Then you get into the Holmes vs Patrasch of the account. Which muddies the water and we get into 4th and 5th gen lore/clues.
I’m a bit of an apologist which means outside of 3rd gen it becomes increasingly more probable of variation and embellishment.
I E. Take the King James Translation. This was created from the Latin vulgate. Not the original text. Therefore it’s an interpretation of an interpretation. Or translation of a translation. It loses accuracy and depth.

GarMIN

 

[cuzimloony]

I have yet to see any verifiable proof that Waltz ever spent any time working at the Vulture Mine in Wickenberg. So many things about the LDM stories become fact when in reality, there isn't a whole lot of fact available to work with.

If ANYONE has documentation verifying Waltz having worked at the Vulture, it would be great to see

Anyone have any verifiable proof that Waltz, German speaker, dictated his mine location to Julia so she could map it.....in English and Spanish? Waltz liked Julia specifically because she spoke German with him, not Engliah and Spanish. Even the word "gold" which is the same word in German and English, even that word they write in Spanish. Not one German word on any "Waltz" map.

The whole thing is a crap chute, imo.

 

[IrishMik]

Uh oh.....someome just burned a valuable bridge........
You've been studying this for years, but never heard of Greg? Where have you been studying? Do you know who sarge is? You call him a troll? Maybe a little ruff and scruff, but thats called being a man. Rough and scruff is normal for men.
If you REALLY want to study this, you'll find Greg.
Im not arguing with you and I wish you luck....but it sure was jaw dropping (slightly) to see someone schluff off a thunter who has ACTUALLY been studying this, so readily.
He dropped a lot of clues there for ya...... if you haven't been to Greg's library, then how do you know what documents do and dont exist? How can you be so sarcastic when you are clearly the new guy. (Yay it's not me anymore!) There is no better of repository of Superstition knowledge/documents/history, than Greg.
It's not "hidden knowledge." It's at Greg's.

I reached out to him a couple days ago after I realized who he was. I assumed it was someone spoofing as him. Didnt think he'd actually be on here.
As far as not knowing who Greg is might not always be a bad thing. If I'm pulling information from every available source I can locate and striving not to be skewed one way another then if I've already jumped on those sources I missed my mark. Ive created a composition of what i've found for all the "early clues" that are out there. Ill post that next. But from what I can tell it's way more than what a dying man would rattle off. Glad to take the FNG title from you! You're welcome lol

 

[IrishMik]

Here is a listed compilation of "clues" I've compiled. Now the art will be to pull it apart to what is actually genuine early clues. I'm also playing with the idea that Waltz gave one set of clues to Julia/Rhiney and anther set to Holmes. If true the split should take you to same place. Not sure where it will go or if its even valid. What I'm trying to do is take an outside view and limit presuppositions on any of it.

JIM BARK (via interviews and notes compiled 1891–1928)

1. "You don’t find it from the sky, you follow the trail."
2. "A day’s ride from Phoenix."
3. "You go up the trail to Florence."
4. "You turn into the canyon when you see the four peaks that look like one."
5. "The trail turns at the rock that looks like a man."
6. "When you pass the stone house, you’re getting close."
7. "There’s a spire that stands up alone, and the sun shines through the saddle."
8. "At sunset, the light shines directly into the entrance."
9. "There’s water below the mine."
10. "It’s on a shelf, behind brush, with a stone overhang."
11. "You can see the spire through the gun sight when you’re above it."
12. "He had to hide it quickly, so it wasn’t deep."
13. "There was a two-room stone house not far away."
14. "He came in from Florence, not Phoenix, and followed the government trail."
15. "The shaft was hard to see from above—it looked like just a shadow on the rock."
16. "There were two stone pillars nearby."
17. "It was not near Weaver’s Needle, though everyone thinks it is."
18. "The canyon curves, and the mine sits just beneath the break."
19. "Gold was chocolate quartz, already pure, not needing refining."
20. "He only went in a few times—maybe three—because it was dangerous."

---

​

REINHARDT PETRASCH (as recorded by Bark)

1. "Waltz pointed east, not toward Weaver’s Needle."
2. "He said there was a black rock that hid the entrance."
3. "He said it was behind brush, not far up a canyon."
4. "You could see a tall rock from the mine—like a finger or a chimney."

---

​

JULIA THOMAS (as recalled by Bark)

1. "Jacob told me to follow the trail, not the landmarks."
2. "He said the mountain didn’t look special unless you knew what to look for."
3. "We turned too soon and mistook the needle."

---

​

DICK HOLMES (variously quoted in later retellings)

1. "Go to the first water, then look left for the man-shaped rock."
2. "Follow the canyon until you find the house made of stone."
3. "The gold was cached under the bed—high-grade stuff, just like Waltz said."
4. "He showed me a map, but I lost it in the flood."
5. "He told me to look for the sun that shines into the mine in the evening."

---

​

P.C. BICKNELL (1883 San Francisco Chronicle article)

1. "The shaft lies hidden in a narrow gulch, with steep walls."
2. "A stone house is built partly in a cave, near the location."
3. "It is several days’ ride east of Phoenix, past Sombrero Butte."
4. "The mine lies in broken volcanic country, with brush and little water."
5. "The tunnel was once covered with brush and rock."

Jim Bark / Wayne Tuttle (Chasing Legends)

1. “The sun shines into the mine entrance at sundown.”
2. “There’s a stone house nearby, with two rooms.”
3. “The mine is on a high shelf, not visible from below.”
4. “A narrow trail leads past two stone pillars.”
5. “You can see the spire from the entrance.”
6. “There is a spring not far below.”
7. “The saddle forms a gun sight above the mine.”
8. “Waltz covered the mine with brush.”
9. “The rock is like chocolate quartz.”
10. “You ride toward the mountains until you see the four peaks become one.”
11. “You turn left at the canyon mouth before the 4-in-1 peaks.”
12. “The entrance faces west.”
13. “There’s a natural arch nearby.”
14. “No tailings are visible.”
15. “It’s only a short walk from the house to the mine.”

Larry Hendrick / Jack San Felice (First Dutch Hunters Transcript)

1. “You’ll find a stone house with two rooms before you reach the mine.”
2. “The Dutchman’s mine lies beyond a saddle that forms a gun notch.”
3. “You’ll see a spire from the mine—sharp, thin, like a finger.”
4. “There’s a ledge that runs under the mine entrance.”
5. “The mine faces the setting sun.”
6. “Water is below, in a pool that never dries.”
7. “There’s a drop-off just below the entrance. Dangerous footing.”
8. “The walls shine red and yellow in the light.”
9. “Near the entrance, the bushes grow thick. Mesquite, mostly.”
10. “When you see the peak that looks like a sombrero, you’re too far.”
11. “Don’t go past the rock that looks like a man standing guard.”

Holmes (as quoted in Bark Notes and Tuttle’s narration)

1. “There’s a white rock near the mine entrance, bright as chalk.”
2. “You can reach it in a day’s ride from Phoenix.”
3. “The mine was covered. You could walk past it and not see it.”
4. “It’s close enough to water, but not right on it.”
5. “It’s in a canyon, but high enough that it’s not wet.”

Original Source Clues

◼ Jacob Waltz (as quoted by Julia Thomas, Bark, Holmes, etc.)

• “From my mine, I can see the military trail.”
• “There is a spire-shaped rock you can see from the trail.”
• “It is a day’s ride from Phoenix.”
• “The setting sun shines into the entrance.”
• “There is water below the mine.”
• “Near my mine is a two-room stone house.”
• “A canyon runs near it.”
• “There is a saddle above it like a gun sight.”
• “A stone arch can be seen along the way.”
• “There are four peaks that look like one when aligned.”

---

​

Jim Bark Notes (via Wayne Tuttle Transcript)

• “He covered the entrance with brush and mesquite.”
• “There is a rock that resembles a human face along the trail.”
• “You can see the spire from the trail, but not the mine.”
• “There is a cliff above the mine.”
• “The spire is in line with the entrance when viewed from the saddle.”
• “He had to climb to get into the mine.”
• “There is a shadow that points to the entrance near sunset.”

---

​

Dick Holmes Statements (As told to Storm, Bark, or newspapers)

• “The mine was near a white quartz outcropping.”
• “He showed me a black ledge with gold.”
• “There was a brush-covered tunnel entrance.”
• “You could see a military trail from the mine.”
• “There was a dead mesquite nearby.”

---

​

Clues Made Easy – Hank Sheffer & Larry Hedrick

• “You’ll see a rock that looks like a man—turn there.”
• “The trail passes through a natural arch.”
• “You go to first water, then turn left.”
• “The four peaks line up before you make the turn.”
• “The spire points the way.”

---

​

Larry Hedrick & Jack San Felice Transcript (First Dutch Hunters)

• “The gold was on a shelf, hard to reach.”
• “There was no real tailings pile.”
• “He had to break quartz by hand.”
• “An old house sat near the base of the trail.”

---

​

Wayne Tuttle (Narrating Bark and Other Sources)

• “There’s a trail that only reveals the Spire from one angle.”
• “The saddle above the site frames the Spire perfectly.”
• “There’s a two-room stone ruin directly south.”
• “The canyon twists but allows entry from Florence.”
• “A pool of water is present in winter below the shelf.”
• “The mine faces west—sunlight hits it late in the day.”
• “The gun sight view is real and lines up to the Spire.”
• “There are white dots or boulders around the mine.”
• “The mine opening is small, not visible from above.”
• “There’s a natural stone arch on the approach path.”

 

[cuzimloony]

I reached out to him a couple days ago after I realized who he was. I assumed it was someone spoofing as him. Didnt think he'd actually be on here.
As far as not knowing who Greg is might not always be a bad thing. If I'm pulling information from every available source I can locate and striving not to be skewed one way another then if I've already jumped on those sources I missed my mark. Ive created a composition of what i've found for all the "early clues" that are out there. Ill post that next. But from what I can tell it's way more than what a dying man would rattle off. Glad to take the FNG title from you! You're welcome lol

All good bro. You're putting in the effort.
I like to see that. You seem motivated so strike while the iron is hot.

I have a special place for Frank. He took me under his wing a few years ago and showed me more than any other thunter, hands down, and he is the only person to ever take me to actual gold. He is the real deal man. No joke.

Trust me....if you're interested/researching the dutchman and are in the area, Greg is an invaluable source. It would behoove you to seek out Greg. Don't write him off.
You could come to the Rendezvous in Nov too. That's where I first met him. You can also find him on here.

20 min away you say..... you close to Queen Creek?

 

[IrishMik]

All good bro. You're putting in the effort.
I like to see that. You seem motivated so strike while the iron is hot.

I have a special place for Frank. He took me under his wing a few years ago and showed me more than any other thunter, hands down, and he is the only person to ever take me to actual gold. He is the real deal man. No joke.

Trust me....if you're interested/researching the dutchman and are in the area, Greg is an invaluable source. It would behoove you to seek out Greg. Don't write him off.
You could come to the Rendezvous in Nov too. That's where I first met him. You can also find him on here.

20 min away you say..... you close to Queen Creek?

San Tan Valley/Queen Creek area. I'm hoping to make the Rendezvous in Nov. I'm already digging to try and figure out who Greg is. lol. Appreciate the help.

 

[cuzimloony]

San Tan Valley/Queen Creek area. I'm hoping to make the Rendezvous in Nov. I'm already digging to try and figure out who Greg is. lol. Appreciate the help.

Greg Davis.

Im close to you. Are you healthy and able to get around out there? Got hiking gear?

 

[IrishMik]

Greg Davis.

Im close to you. Are you healthy and able to get around out there? Got hiking gear?

Man do I feel dumb. I know of Greg Davis. Haven't tried hunting him down yet. But gone through alot of content with him in it.

I have gear to hike. No ATV so limited in that avenue. 41 in good health. Been in the oil fields and construction my entire adult life. So I have some of that wear and tear. lol.

 

[cuzimloony]

Man do I feel dumb. I know of Greg Davis. Haven't tried hunting him down yet. But gone through alot of content with him in it.

I have gear to hike. No ATV so limited in that avenue. 41 in good health. Been in the oil fields and construction my entire adult life. So I have some of that wear and tear. lol

Sounds good to me. Wanna come in with me one of these days? I jeep in till I can't and then explore from there. Name's Joe! I'll send ya a pm.......

 

[SPARTANOC]

Here is a listed compilation of "clues" I've compiled. Now the art will be to pull it apart to what is actually genuine early clues. I'm also playing with the idea that Waltz gave one set of clues to Julia/Rhiney and anther set to Holmes. If true the split should take you to same place. Not sure where it will go or if its even valid. What I'm trying to do is take an outside view and limit presuppositions on any of it.

JIM BARK (via interviews and notes compiled 1891–1928)

1. "You don’t find it from the sky, you follow the trail."
2. "A day’s ride from Phoenix."
3. "You go up the trail to Florence."
4. "You turn into the canyon when you see the four peaks that look like one."
5. "The trail turns at the rock that looks like a man."
6. "When you pass the stone house, you’re getting close."
7. "There’s a spire that stands up alone, and the sun shines through the saddle."
8. "At sunset, the light shines directly into the entrance."
9. "There’s water below the mine."
10. "It’s on a shelf, behind brush, with a stone overhang."
11. "You can see the spire through the gun sight when you’re above it."
12. "He had to hide it quickly, so it wasn’t deep."
13. "There was a two-room stone house not far away."
14. "He came in from Florence, not Phoenix, and followed the government trail."
15. "The shaft was hard to see from above—it looked like just a shadow on the rock."
16. "There were two stone pillars nearby."
17. "It was not near Weaver’s Needle, though everyone thinks it is."
18. "The canyon curves, and the mine sits just beneath the break."
19. "Gold was chocolate quartz, already pure, not needing refining."
20. "He only went in a few times—maybe three—because it was dangerous."

​

---

REINHARDT PETRASCH (as recorded by Bark)

1. "Waltz pointed east, not toward Weaver’s Needle."
2. "He said there was a black rock that hid the entrance."
3. "He said it was behind brush, not far up a canyon."
4. "You could see a tall rock from the mine—like a finger or a chimney."

​

---

JULIA THOMAS (as recalled by Bark)

1. "Jacob told me to follow the trail, not the landmarks."
2. "He said the mountain didn’t look special unless you knew what to look for."
3. "We turned too soon and mistook the needle."

​

---

DICK HOLMES (variously quoted in later retellings)

1. "Go to the first water, then look left for the man-shaped rock."
2. "Follow the canyon until you find the house made of stone."
3. "The gold was cached under the bed—high-grade stuff, just like Waltz said."
4. "He showed me a map, but I lost it in the flood."
5. "He told me to look for the sun that shines into the mine in the evening."

​

---

P.C. BICKNELL (1883 San Francisco Chronicle article)

1. "The shaft lies hidden in a narrow gulch, with steep walls."
2. "A stone house is built partly in a cave, near the location."
3. "It is several days’ ride east of Phoenix, past Sombrero Butte."
4. "The mine lies in broken volcanic country, with brush and little water."
5. "The tunnel was once covered with brush and rock."

Jim Bark / Wayne Tuttle (Chasing Legends)

1. “The sun shines into the mine entrance at sundown.”
2. “There’s a stone house nearby, with two rooms.”
3. “The mine is on a high shelf, not visible from below.”
4. “A narrow trail leads past two stone pillars.”
5. “You can see the spire from the entrance.”
6. “There is a spring not far below.”
7. “The saddle forms a gun sight above the mine.”
8. “Waltz covered the mine with brush.”
9. “The rock is like chocolate quartz.”
10. “You ride toward the mountains until you see the four peaks become one.”
11. “You turn left at the canyon mouth before the 4-in-1 peaks.”
12. “The entrance faces west.”
13. “There’s a natural arch nearby.”
14. “No tailings are visible.”
15. “It’s only a short walk from the house to the mine.”

Larry Hendrick / Jack San Felice (First Dutch Hunters Transcript)

1. “You’ll find a stone house with two rooms before you reach the mine.”
2. “The Dutchman’s mine lies beyond a saddle that forms a gun notch.”
3. “You’ll see a spire from the mine—sharp, thin, like a finger.”
4. “There’s a ledge that runs under the mine entrance.”
5. “The mine faces the setting sun.”
6. “Water is below, in a pool that never dries.”
7. “There’s a drop-off just below the entrance. Dangerous footing.”
8. “The walls shine red and yellow in the light.”
9. “Near the entrance, the bushes grow thick. Mesquite, mostly.”
10. “When you see the peak that looks like a sombrero, you’re too far.”
11. “Don’t go past the rock that looks like a man standing guard.”

Holmes (as quoted in Bark Notes and Tuttle’s narration)

1. “There’s a white rock near the mine entrance, bright as chalk.”
2. “You can reach it in a day’s ride from Phoenix.”
3. “The mine was covered. You could walk past it and not see it.”
4. “It’s close enough to water, but not right on it.”
5. “It’s in a canyon, but high enough that it’s not wet.”

Original Source Clues

◼ Jacob Waltz (as quoted by Julia Thomas, Bark, Holmes, etc.)

• “From my mine, I can see the military trail.”
• “There is a spire-shaped rock you can see from the trail.”
• “It is a day’s ride from Phoenix.”
• “The setting sun shines into the entrance.”
• “There is water below the mine.”
• “Near my mine is a two-room stone house.”
• “A canyon runs near it.”
• “There is a saddle above it like a gun sight.”
• “A stone arch can be seen along the way.”
• “There are four peaks that look like one when aligned.”

​

---

Jim Bark Notes (via Wayne Tuttle Transcript)

• “He covered the entrance with brush and mesquite.”
• “There is a rock that resembles a human face along the trail.”
• “You can see the spire from the trail, but not the mine.”
• “There is a cliff above the mine.”
• “The spire is in line with the entrance when viewed from the saddle.”
• “He had to climb to get into the mine.”
• “There is a shadow that points to the entrance near sunset.”

​

---

Dick Holmes Statements (As told to Storm, Bark, or newspapers)

• “The mine was near a white quartz outcropping.”
• “He showed me a black ledge with gold.”
• “There was a brush-covered tunnel entrance.”
• “You could see a military trail from the mine.”
• “There was a dead mesquite nearby.”

​

---

Clues Made Easy – Hank Sheffer & Larry Hedrick

• “You’ll see a rock that looks like a man—turn there.”
• “The trail passes through a natural arch.”
• “You go to first water, then turn left.”
• “The four peaks line up before you make the turn.”
• “The spire points the way.”

​

---

Larry Hedrick & Jack San Felice Transcript (First Dutch Hunters)

• “The gold was on a shelf, hard to reach.”
• “There was no real tailings pile.”
• “He had to break quartz by hand.”
• “An old house sat near the base of the trail.”

​

---

Wayne Tuttle (Narrating Bark and Other Sources)

• “There’s a trail that only reveals the Spire from one angle.”
• “The saddle above the site frames the Spire perfectly.”
• “There’s a two-room stone ruin directly south.”
• “The canyon twists but allows entry from Florence.”
• “A pool of water is present in winter below the shelf.”
• “The mine faces west—sunlight hits it late in the day.”
• “The gun sight view is real and lines up to the Spire.”
• “There are white dots or boulders around the mine.”
• “The mine opening is small, not visible from above.”
• “There’s a natural stone arch on the approach path.”

IrishMik

Well done on the clues - gathering the perspective of some of the 'key people'.

As for going out there into the fray - Joe's a good guy to start out there with. He's been very busy in his own theories, but he's always up for an adventure. He is driven on his quests and is quite detail oriented, thoroughly and diligently researching an area before going in. An Explorer you can trust. Personally, I look forward to hiking out there with him as well.

Rendezvous is a great place to meet up with some of these guys. I'm hoping to meet up with Joe myself, and others I've been in contact with here on TN. I made it last year, but had to cut it short - due to my wife experiencing heat exhaustion.

Hope to see you there as well!

Grace and Peace
-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

IrishMik

Well done on the clues - gathering the perspective of some of the 'key people'.

As for going out there into the fray - Joe's a good guy to start out there with. He's been very busy in his own theories, but he's always up for an adventure. He is driven on his quests and is quite detail oriented, thoroughly and diligently researching an area before going in. An Explorer you can trust. Personally, I look forward to hiking out there with him as well.

Rendezvous is a great place to meet up with some of these guys. I'm hoping to meet up with Joe myself, and others I've been in contact with here on TN. I made it last year, but had to cut it short - due to my wife experiencing heat exhaustion.

Hope to see you there as well!

Grace and Peace
-SpartanOC

Thanks for that Matt!

 

[IrishMik]

Here is a listed compilation of "clues" I've compiled. Now the art will be to pull it apart to what is actually genuine early clues. I'm also playing with the idea that Waltz gave one set of clues to Julia/Rhiney and anther set to Holmes. If true the split should take you to same place. Not sure where it will go or if its even valid. What I'm trying to do is take an outside view and limit presuppositions on any of it.

JIM BARK (via interviews and notes compiled 1891–1928)

1. "You don’t find it from the sky, you follow the trail."
2. "A day’s ride from Phoenix."
3. "You go up the trail to Florence."
4. "You turn into the canyon when you see the four peaks that look like one."
5. "The trail turns at the rock that looks like a man."
6. "When you pass the stone house, you’re getting close."
7. "There’s a spire that stands up alone, and the sun shines through the saddle."
8. "At sunset, the light shines directly into the entrance."
9. "There’s water below the mine."
10. "It’s on a shelf, behind brush, with a stone overhang."
11. "You can see the spire through the gun sight when you’re above it."
12. "He had to hide it quickly, so it wasn’t deep."
13. "There was a two-room stone house not far away."
14. "He came in from Florence, not Phoenix, and followed the government trail."
15. "The shaft was hard to see from above—it looked like just a shadow on the rock."
16. "There were two stone pillars nearby."
17. "It was not near Weaver’s Needle, though everyone thinks it is."
18. "The canyon curves, and the mine sits just beneath the break."
19. "Gold was chocolate quartz, already pure, not needing refining."
20. "He only went in a few times—maybe three—because it was dangerous."

​

---

REINHARDT PETRASCH (as recorded by Bark)

1. "Waltz pointed east, not toward Weaver’s Needle."
2. "He said there was a black rock that hid the entrance."
3. "He said it was behind brush, not far up a canyon."
4. "You could see a tall rock from the mine—like a finger or a chimney."

​

---

JULIA THOMAS (as recalled by Bark)

1. "Jacob told me to follow the trail, not the landmarks."
2. "He said the mountain didn’t look special unless you knew what to look for."
3. "We turned too soon and mistook the needle."

​

---

DICK HOLMES (variously quoted in later retellings)

1. "Go to the first water, then look left for the man-shaped rock."
2. "Follow the canyon until you find the house made of stone."
3. "The gold was cached under the bed—high-grade stuff, just like Waltz said."
4. "He showed me a map, but I lost it in the flood."
5. "He told me to look for the sun that shines into the mine in the evening."

​

---

P.C. BICKNELL (1883 San Francisco Chronicle article)

1. "The shaft lies hidden in a narrow gulch, with steep walls."
2. "A stone house is built partly in a cave, near the location."
3. "It is several days’ ride east of Phoenix, past Sombrero Butte."
4. "The mine lies in broken volcanic country, with brush and little water."
5. "The tunnel was once covered with brush and rock."

Jim Bark / Wayne Tuttle (Chasing Legends)

1. “The sun shines into the mine entrance at sundown.”
2. “There’s a stone house nearby, with two rooms.”
3. “The mine is on a high shelf, not visible from below.”
4. “A narrow trail leads past two stone pillars.”
5. “You can see the spire from the entrance.”
6. “There is a spring not far below.”
7. “The saddle forms a gun sight above the mine.”
8. “Waltz covered the mine with brush.”
9. “The rock is like chocolate quartz.”
10. “You ride toward the mountains until you see the four peaks become one.”
11. “You turn left at the canyon mouth before the 4-in-1 peaks.”
12. “The entrance faces west.”
13. “There’s a natural arch nearby.”
14. “No tailings are visible.”
15. “It’s only a short walk from the house to the mine.”

Larry Hendrick / Jack San Felice (First Dutch Hunters Transcript)

1. “You’ll find a stone house with two rooms before you reach the mine.”
2. “The Dutchman’s mine lies beyond a saddle that forms a gun notch.”
3. “You’ll see a spire from the mine—sharp, thin, like a finger.”
4. “There’s a ledge that runs under the mine entrance.”
5. “The mine faces the setting sun.”
6. “Water is below, in a pool that never dries.”
7. “There’s a drop-off just below the entrance. Dangerous footing.”
8. “The walls shine red and yellow in the light.”
9. “Near the entrance, the bushes grow thick. Mesquite, mostly.”
10. “When you see the peak that looks like a sombrero, you’re too far.”
11. “Don’t go past the rock that looks like a man standing guard.”

Holmes (as quoted in Bark Notes and Tuttle’s narration)

1. “There’s a white rock near the mine entrance, bright as chalk.”
2. “You can reach it in a day’s ride from Phoenix.”
3. “The mine was covered. You could walk past it and not see it.”
4. “It’s close enough to water, but not right on it.”
5. “It’s in a canyon, but high enough that it’s not wet.”

Original Source Clues

◼ Jacob Waltz (as quoted by Julia Thomas, Bark, Holmes, etc.)

• “From my mine, I can see the military trail.”
• “There is a spire-shaped rock you can see from the trail.”
• “It is a day’s ride from Phoenix.”
• “The setting sun shines into the entrance.”
• “There is water below the mine.”
• “Near my mine is a two-room stone house.”
• “A canyon runs near it.”
• “There is a saddle above it like a gun sight.”
• “A stone arch can be seen along the way.”
• “There are four peaks that look like one when aligned.”

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Jim Bark Notes (via Wayne Tuttle Transcript)

• “He covered the entrance with brush and mesquite.”
• “There is a rock that resembles a human face along the trail.”
• “You can see the spire from the trail, but not the mine.”
• “There is a cliff above the mine.”
• “The spire is in line with the entrance when viewed from the saddle.”
• “He had to climb to get into the mine.”
• “There is a shadow that points to the entrance near sunset.”

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Dick Holmes Statements (As told to Storm, Bark, or newspapers)

• “The mine was near a white quartz outcropping.”
• “He showed me a black ledge with gold.”
• “There was a brush-covered tunnel entrance.”
• “You could see a military trail from the mine.”
• “There was a dead mesquite nearby.”

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Clues Made Easy – Hank Sheffer & Larry Hedrick

• “You’ll see a rock that looks like a man—turn there.”
• “The trail passes through a natural arch.”
• “You go to first water, then turn left.”
• “The four peaks line up before you make the turn.”
• “The spire points the way.”

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Larry Hedrick & Jack San Felice Transcript (First Dutch Hunters)

• “The gold was on a shelf, hard to reach.”
• “There was no real tailings pile.”
• “He had to break quartz by hand.”
• “An old house sat near the base of the trail.”

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Wayne Tuttle (Narrating Bark and Other Sources)

• “There’s a trail that only reveals the Spire from one angle.”
• “The saddle above the site frames the Spire perfectly.”
• “There’s a two-room stone ruin directly south.”
• “The canyon twists but allows entry from Florence.”
• “A pool of water is present in winter below the shelf.”
• “The mine faces west—sunlight hits it late in the day.”
• “The gun sight view is real and lines up to the Spire.”
• “There are white dots or boulders around the mine.”
• “The mine opening is small, not visible from above.”
• “There’s a natural stone arch on the approach path.”

After careful consideration and clue provenance there are in fact 2 sets of clues that sort out. One set is Julia/Petrasch and the other Holmes.
If the lore is correct. Waltz fed Julia/P over time and Holmes in short order.
Therefore by splitting the clues between the two groups one should be able to arrive at the same location using both sets.
In my research it appears that this was exactly what Clay was attempting to do. Any chance anyone has the final clues that Clay held back on? I know Wayne tried.

 

[393stroker]

Yeah I live down here. About 20 minutes out from them. Been studying the LDM for several years with no progress. Decided to strip it back to basics and take out all the extra noise. I have a pretty good working theory but since it’s summer and can’t go out there I’m trying to get more confirmation or blow my theory up.
My goal is to get as close to the basics as possible and work it from there. Seems to be effective. I just like to have as many accurate sources as possible. I firmly believe Julia and Rhiney miss ordered the clues and got lost.
So I’m trying to re order them and walk it back in.

This book might come in handy; I like the maps where Waltz was seen and the direction he was traveling.

 

[Idahodutch]

After careful consideration and clue provenance there are in fact 2 sets of clues that sort out. One set is Julia/Petrasch and the other Holmes.
If the lore is correct. Waltz fed Julia/P over time and Holmes in short order.
Therefore by splitting the clues between the two groups one should be able to arrive at the same location using both sets.
In my research it appears that this was exactly what Clay was attempting to do. Any chance anyone has the final clues that Clay held back on? I know Wayne tried.

IrishMik,
I sent you a message.

Idahodutch