Earliest Clues

[sgtfda]

Will you share that document so myself and others can read it as well? In the world of research it makes a massive difference when backing up a claim to also produce the source material. With technology today it’s easier than ever to share material without having to relinquish it. A simple photo or scan allows for this. Thanks.

It's in the Garman file at the museum library at Greg's house. You ask a question. I give you a answer and you call me a troll. Good luck.

 

[IrishMik]

It's in the Garman file at the museum library at Greg's house. You ask a question. I give you an answer and you call me a troll. Good luck.

Well maybe that one’s on me. I jumped to a conclusion I maybe shouldn’t have. For that I apologize. However, in my defense your response had no backing. It’s something I’ve never ever heard or found anywhere and came across extremely dismissive and trolling.
I thought you said you had it?
Who’s Gregg and where’s this museum? Thanks.

 

[Cubfan64]

I have yet to see any verifiable proof that Waltz ever spent any time working at the Vulture Mine in Wickenberg. So many things about the LDM stories become fact when in reality, there isn't a whole lot of fact available to work with.

If ANYONE has documentation verifying Waltz having worked at the Vulture, it would be great to see

 

[sdcfia]

As far as I’m aware the gold of wars has been tested and the geological finger print doesn’t match any known mine. They’ve compared the vulture finger print and it’s not it a match. Is that information incorrect?

This argument can get complex even though it's a simple one primarily used to rule out the Vulture Mine as Waltz'z possible ore source. If you dig a little deeper (sorry), even the Vulture case can get hazy.

Question: Do all metallic ores recovered from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint"?
ChatGTP: No, not all metallic ores from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint." In fact, variability in mineralogical characteristics is very common even within a single ore body.

People can follow up on this topic if they wish and draw their own conclusions. I've seen evidence of radically different gold ore myself in the Colorado mine I worked in. Those earth juices can be unpredictable.

As far as the Waltz ore not matching any known mine, I seriously doubt if there's anywhere close to even a negligible collection of different mines' ores from the late 1800s. There were hundreds of mines in the west then, many of them retrieving very rich ores, especially in their early years of operation. Where is this collection? The ore could have come from any number of places - even the Superstitions.

Gold ore was a common commodity and easy to come by in Waltz's time. Hell, even in 1974 I saw lots of gold ore much richer than the photographs shown of the matchbox ore. Free gold in quartz vugs was routinely highgraded from the Idarado Mine in Colorado, piled up in miners' garages and sold above spot price to Chinese agents who routinely made the rounds in the Ouray-Silverton district and elsewhere. (Yeah, the Chinese have been accumulating for at least 50 years).

Bottom line - we have to assume on faith the deathbed ore was from a Waltz secret mine in the Superstitions because he said so, and maybe it's true. But you know what happens when you assume.

 

[sgtfda]

This argument can get complex even though it's a simple one primarily used to rule out the Vulture Mine as Waltz'z possible ore source. If you dig a little deeper (sorry), even the Vulture case can get hazy.

Question: Do all metallic ores recovered from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint"?
ChatGTP: No, not all metallic ores from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint." In fact, variability in mineralogical characteristics is very common even within a single ore body.

People can follow up on this topic if they wish and draw their own conclusions. I've seen evidence of radically different gold ore myself in the Colorado mine I worked in. Those earth juices can be unpredictable.

As far as the Waltz ore not matching any known mine, I seriously doubt if there's anywhere close to even a negligible collection of different mines' ores from the late 1800s. There were hundreds of mines in the west then, many of them retrieving very rich ores, especially in their early years of operation. Where is this collection? The ore could have come from any number of places - even the Superstitions.

Gold ore was a common commodity and easy to come by in Waltz's time. Hell, even in 1974 I saw lots of gold ore much richer than the photographs shown of the matchbox ore. Free gold in quartz vugs was routinely highgraded from the Idarado Mine in Colorado, piled up in miners' garages and sold above spot price to Chinese agents who routinely made the rounds in the Ouray-Silverton district and elsewhere. (Yeah, the Chinese have been accumulating for at least 50 years).

Bottom line - we have to assume on faith the deathbed ore was from a Waltz secret mine in the Superstitions because he said so, and maybe it's true. But you know what happens when you assume.

Dr Glover gave a talk at a Rendezvous and said Waltz would get his mines mixed up. Miners keep rich samples from their mines. The gold could have been from anywhere he mined. His opinion was the LDM was in the Bradshaw's. Tom K thought so also at the end.

 

[sdcfia]

Dr Glover gave a talk at a Rendezvous and said Waltz would get his mines mixed up. Miners keep rich samples from their mines. The gold could have been from anywhere he mined. His opinion was the LDM was in the Bradshaw's. Tom K thought so also at the end.

You're right - that ore could have come from anywhere. Waltz died 134 years ago. Despite a number of allegations of "knowing", likely based on whiskey talk, it's at least an option that if the mine exists, it's not where thousands have been looking. I seem to remember that you're an ex-cop. People looking for lost mines and buried treasure need to think like cops do.

 

[IrishMik]

This argument can get complex even though it's a simple one primarily used to rule out the Vulture Mine as Waltz'z possible ore source. If you dig a little deeper (sorry), even the Vulture case can get hazy.

Question: Do all metallic ores recovered from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint"?
ChatGTP: No, not all metallic ores from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint." In fact, variability in mineralogical characteristics is very common even within a single ore body.

People can follow up on this topic if they wish and draw their own conclusions. I've seen evidence of radically different gold ore myself in the Colorado mine I worked in. Those earth juices can be unpredictable.

As far as the Waltz ore not matching any known mine, I seriously doubt if there's anywhere close to even a negligible collection of different mines' ores from the late 1800s. There were hundreds of mines in the west then, many of them retrieving very rich ores, especially in their early years of operation. Where is this collection? The ore could have come from any number of places - even the Superstitions.

Gold ore was a common commodity and easy to come by in Waltz's time. Hell, even in 1974 I saw lots of gold ore much richer than the photographs shown of the matchbox ore. Free gold in quartz vugs was routinely highgraded from the Idarado Mine in Colorado, piled up in miners' garages and sold above spot price to Chinese agents who routinely made the rounds in the Ouray-Silverton district and elsewhere. (Yeah, the Chinese have been accumulating for at least 50 years).

Bottom line - we have to assume on faith the deathbed ore was from a Waltz secret mine in the Superstitions because he said so, and maybe it's true. But you know what happens when you assume.

Stability of "gold fingerprints" in veins
The term "gold fingerprint" refers to the unique trace element composition of gold that can indicate its geological origin or even a specific deposit. This "fingerprint" is essentially a chemical signature preserved within the gold itself.
How stable is this signature?

• Long-lasting stability: Gold deposits within veins, particularly quartz veins, are known for their chemical stability and resistance to weathering. This means that the gold and its associated trace element "fingerprint" can be preserved for millions of years, making them valuable for tracing provenance and understanding geological processes over long periods.
• Geochemical stability over geological timescales: The concept of a geochemical fingerprint in Earth sciences emphasizes that the chemical signal providing information about a sample's origin or formation should ideally remain largely unchanged over time. While minor changes can occur, the main characteristics of the original chemical signature are expected to be preserved and recognizable.
• Insights from volcanic rocks: Studies on volcanic rocks suggest that geochemical anomalies, potentially acting as "fingerprints," can be preserved within Earth's mantle for billions of years, indicating a level of stability that could extend to gold deposits, according to a University of Maryland study.

Factors potentially influencing changes in gold fingerprints
While generally stable, gold fingerprints could potentially be altered by:

• Extreme geological events: Intense metamorphism or significant hydrothermal overprinting events might cause some redistribution or alteration of trace elements within the gold, potentially impacting the fingerprint.
• Weathering processes: While less impactful within the protective environment of a vein, prolonged exposure to surface weathering could, in certain circumstances, induce some changes in the trace element composition of gold.
• Re-mobilization and re-deposition:Subsequent geological processes could, in some instances, lead to the re-mobilization and re-deposition of gold, which might result in the incorporation of new trace elements and a modification of the original fingerprint.

Conclusion
The "gold fingerprint" embedded within veins is remarkably stable and can provide valuable information about the origin and history of gold over vast geological timescales. While extreme geological conditions or weathering might potentially induce some changes, the core chemical signature of gold in veins tends to be preserved for millions of years, making it a powerful tool in geological studies, forensics, and archaeology

 

[IrishMik]

This argument can get complex even though it's a simple one primarily used to rule out the Vulture Mine as Waltz'z possible ore source. If you dig a little deeper (sorry), even the Vulture case can get hazy.

Question: Do all metallic ores recovered from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint"?
ChatGTP: No, not all metallic ores from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint." In fact, variability in mineralogical characteristics is very common even within a single ore body.

People can follow up on this topic if they wish and draw their own conclusions. I've seen evidence of radically different gold ore myself in the Colorado mine I worked in. Those earth juices can be unpredictable.

As far as the Waltz ore not matching any known mine, I seriously doubt if there's anywhere close to even a negligible collection of different mines' ores from the late 1800s. There were hundreds of mines in the west then, many of them retrieving very rich ores, especially in their early years of operation. Where is this collection? The ore could have come from any number of places - even the Superstitions.

Gold ore was a common commodity and easy to come by in Waltz's time. Hell, even in 1974 I saw lots of gold ore much richer than the photographs shown of the matchbox ore. Free gold in quartz vugs was routinely highgraded from the Idarado Mine in Colorado, piled up in miners' garages and sold above spot price to Chinese agents who routinely made the rounds in the Ouray-Silverton district and elsewhere. (Yeah, the Chinese have been accumulating for at least 50 years).

Bottom line - we have to assume on faith the deathbed ore was from a Waltz secret mine in the Superstitions because he said so, and maybe it's true. But you know what happens when you assume.

Stability of "gold fingerprints" in veins
The term "gold fingerprint" refers to the unique trace element composition of gold that can indicate its geological origin or even a specific deposit. This "fingerprint" is essentially a chemical signature preserved within the gold itself.
How stable is this signature?

• Long-lasting stability: Gold deposits within veins, particularly quartz veins, are known for their chemical stability and resistance to weathering. This means that the gold and its associated trace element "fingerprint" can be preserved for millions of years, making them valuable for tracing provenance and understanding geological processes over long periods.
• Geochemical stability over geological timescales: The concept of a geochemical fingerprint in Earth sciences emphasizes that the chemical signal providing information about a sample's origin or formation should ideally remain largely unchanged over time. While minor changes can occur, the main characteristics of the original chemical signature are expected to be preserved and recognizable.
• Insights from volcanic rocks: Studies on volcanic rocks suggest that geochemical anomalies, potentially acting as "fingerprints," can be preserved within Earth's mantle for billions of years, indicating a level of stability that could extend to gold deposits, according to a University of Maryland study.

Factors potentially influencing changes in gold fingerprints
While generally stable, gold fingerprints could potentially be altered by:

• Extreme geological events: Intense metamorphism or significant hydrothermal overprinting events might cause some redistribution or alteration of trace elements within the gold, potentially impacting the fingerprint.
• Weathering processes: While less impactful within the protective environment of a vein, prolonged exposure to surface weathering could, in certain circumstances, induce some changes in the trace element composition of gold.
• Re-mobilization and re-deposition:Subsequent geological processes could, in some instances, lead to the re-mobilization and re-deposition of gold, which might result in the incorporation of new trace elements and a modification of the original fingerprint.

Conclusion
The "gold fingerprint" embedded within veins is remarkably stable and can provide valuable information about the origin and history of gold over vast geological timescales. While extreme geological conditions or weathering might potentially induce some changes, the core chemical signature of gold in veins tends to be preserved for millions of years, making it a powerful tool in geological studies, forensics, and archaeology

 

[SPARTANOC]

This argument can get complex even though it's a simple one primarily used to rule out the Vulture Mine as Waltz'z possible ore source. If you dig a little deeper (sorry), even the Vulture case can get hazy.

Question: Do all metallic ores recovered from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint"?
ChatGTP: No, not all metallic ores from a single mine possess the same "mineralogical fingerprint." In fact, variability in mineralogical characteristics is very common even within a single ore body.

People can follow up on this topic if they wish and draw their own conclusions. I've seen evidence of radically different gold ore myself in the Colorado mine I worked in. Those earth juices can be unpredictable.

As far as the Waltz ore not matching any known mine, I seriously doubt if there's anywhere close to even a negligible collection of different mines' ores from the late 1800s. There were hundreds of mines in the west then, many of them retrieving very rich ores, especially in their early years of operation. Where is this collection? The ore could have come from any number of places - even the Superstitions.

Gold ore was a common commodity and easy to come by in Waltz's time. Hell, even in 1974 I saw lots of gold ore much richer than the photographs shown of the matchbox ore. Free gold in quartz vugs was routinely highgraded from the Idarado Mine in Colorado, piled up in miners' garages and sold above spot price to Chinese agents who routinely made the rounds in the Ouray-Silverton district and elsewhere. (Yeah, the Chinese have been accumulating for at least 50 years).

Bottom line - we have to assume on faith the deathbed ore was from a Waltz secret mine in the Superstitions because he said so, and maybe it's true. But you know what happens when you assume.

sdcfia​

As complex as things can get, the gold under Waltz' bed was so unique that no other mine has ever produced the same "finger print" as Waltz' find. The Purity is much higher than any other gold found in or outside of the Supes. At least thus far.

As for the difference in materials - I believe all gold found in one mine would have the same 'microscopic blueprint' (richness in purity). It may vary depending on the depth - but over all, would be the same "blueprint".
-SpartanOC

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Stability of "gold fingerprints" in veins
The term "gold fingerprint" refers to the unique trace element composition of gold that can indicate its geological origin or even a specific deposit. This "fingerprint" is essentially a chemical signature preserved within the gold itself.
How stable is this signature?

• Long-lasting stability: Gold deposits within veins, particularly quartz veins, are known for their chemical stability and resistance to weathering. This means that the gold and its associated trace element "fingerprint" can be preserved for millions of years, making them valuable for tracing provenance and understanding geological processes over long periods.
• Geochemical stability over geological timescales: The concept of a geochemical fingerprint in Earth sciences emphasizes that the chemical signal providing information about a sample's origin or formation should ideally remain largely unchanged over time. While minor changes can occur, the main characteristics of the original chemical signature are expected to be preserved and recognizable.
• Insights from volcanic rocks: Studies on volcanic rocks suggest that geochemical anomalies, potentially acting as "fingerprints," can be preserved within Earth's mantle for billions of years, indicating a level of stability that could extend to gold deposits, according to a University of Maryland study.

Factors potentially influencing changes in gold fingerprints
While generally stable, gold fingerprints could potentially be altered by:

• Extreme geological events: Intense metamorphism or significant hydrothermal overprinting events might cause some redistribution or alteration of trace elements within the gold, potentially impacting the fingerprint.
• Weathering processes: While less impactful within the protective environment of a vein, prolonged exposure to surface weathering could, in certain circumstances, induce some changes in the trace element composition of gold.
• Re-mobilization and re-deposition:Subsequent geological processes could, in some instances, lead to the re-mobilization and re-deposition of gold, which might result in the incorporation of new trace elements and a modification of the original fingerprint.

Conclusion
The "gold fingerprint" embedded within veins is remarkably stable and can provide valuable information about the origin and history of gold over vast geological timescales. While extreme geological conditions or weathering might potentially induce some changes, the core chemical signature of gold in veins tends to be preserved for millions of years, making it a powerful tool in geological studies, forensics, and archaeology

' that could extend to gold deposits,' doesn't sound very definitive. I personally 'could' have found LDM and eaten all the gold. burp.

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia​

As complex as things can get, the gold under Waltz' bed was so unique that no other mine has ever produced the same "finger print" as Waltz' find. The Purity is much higher than any other gold found in or outside of the Supes. At least thus far.

Really? The matchbox ore, wherever it came from, was damned rich, but by no means unique. As I mentioned in another post, I saw with my own eyes massive gold/white picture rock by the boxful that came from the eastern stopes of the Idarado Mine in CO. Here's a couple samples from that the highgraders couldn't bear to sell off. The Waltz legend is fun, sure, but it might have outgrown its reality.

 

[IrishMik]

' that could extend to gold deposits,' doesn't sound very definitive. I personally 'could' have found LDM and eaten all the gold. burp.

There is always the "could" statement in anything along these lines. They still use the same terminology in DNA even though we know how accurate it is. Could is used to define anything that is less than 100% accuracy. By the way if you ate the gold it "could" have your DNA on it now. lol

 

[SPARTANOC]

Really? The matchbox ore, wherever it came from, was damned rich, but by no means unique. As I mentioned in another post, I saw with my own eyes massive gold/white picture rock by the boxful that came from the eastern stopes of the Idarado Mine in CO. Here's a couple samples from that the highgraders couldn't bear to sell off. The Waltz legend is fun, sure, but it might have outgrown its reality.
View attachment 2219824

View attachment 2219825

sdcfia​

Nice specimen(s).

The LDM purity of gold - is in my opinion Crystalline Gold of sorts, being that the gold is occurring in quartz AND volcanic rock. This type of occurrence is extremely rare - which pushes the value of it, off the charts. Think about it. There's a reason why Waltz' cache and mine has never been located. It's in an area that, most would think nothing is there. Remember, one of the old clues/quote is; "A Miner will not find my Mine". It won't be easily seen nor will the surrounding area have any minerals that would attract a Miner.

-SpartanOC

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia​

Nice specimen(s).

The LDM purity of gold - is in my opinion Crystalline Gold of sorts, being that the gold is occurring in quartz AND volcanic rock. This type of occurrence is extremely rare - which pushes the value of it, off the charts. Think about it. There's a reason why Waltz' cache and mine has never been located. It's in an area that, most would think nothing is there. Remember, one of the old clues/quote is; "A Miner will not find my Mine". It won't be easily seen nor will the surrounding area have any minerals that would attract a Miner.

-SpartanOC

Crystalline gold. Same as the two photos I posted.

At some point, after 134 years of fruitless effort, it seems to me that one has to accept the chance that there is no Lost Dutchman Mine.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Crystalline gold. Same as the two photos I posted.

At some point, after 134 years of fruitless effort, it seems to me that one has to accept the chance that there is no Lost Dutchman Mine.

sdcfia

Never say never. There is of course a chance it doesn't exist, but I've been told Gold doesn't exist in the Supes - and then find, it does.

I believe the number one reason why it's never been found, is the convoluted information that has corrupted the original story. Any story always has some 'bit' of truth, no matter how crazy the story can sounds. I've learned to keep an open mind at all times and you just never know, what will pop up in searching out there. Right now, there are some good discoveries being conducted out in that Wilderness, things that have never been seen, but by only a few.

-SpartanOC

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

sdcfia​

Nice specimen(s).

The LDM purity of gold - is in my opinion Crystalline Gold of sorts, being that the gold is occurring in quartz AND volcanic rock. This type of occurrence is extremely rare - which pushes the value of it, off the charts. Think about it. There's a reason why Waltz' cache and mine has never been located. It's in an area that, most would think nothing is there. Remember, one of the old clues/quote is; "A Miner will not find my Mine". It won't be easily seen nor will the surrounding area have any minerals that would attract a Miner.

-SpartanOC

This volcanic host rock, what do we know about its lithology/mineralogy?

 

[coazon de oro]

Crystalline gold. Same as the two photos I posted.

At some point, after 134 years of fruitless effort, it seems to me that one has to accept the chance that there is no Lost Dutchman Mine.

There is too much proof that it is there, to be thinking like that. In 134 years, many got labeled as experts, and we still have a good number of experts with us. Don't listen to them, they haven't been able to find anything. Think for yourself, don't fall into their ruts that lead to nowhere. Listen only to Jacob Waltz, or try to solve the Peralta Stones.
If Jacob Waltz were able to attend a Rendezvous, he would get after all those experts, telling them "YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION"

 

[markmar]

There is too much proof that it is there, to be thinking like that. In 134 years, many got labeled as experts, and we still have a good number of experts with us. Don't listen to them, they haven't been able to find anything. Think for yourself, don't fall into their ruts that lead to nowhere. Listen only to Jacob Waltz, or try to solve the Peralta Stones.
If Jacob Waltz were able to attend a Rendezvous, he would get after all those experts, telling them "YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION"

How true Homar! And burning out their puppets.

 

[cuzimloony]

IrishMik

That's a good approach. Keep it simple, but keep an open mind. Remember, some here on TN and others, have been at this Legend for most of their adult lives and have found nothing. Those that do find something seem to always keep things close to themselves, for obvious reasons.

As for Summer temps - many won't go in, but there are diehards that will, amazingly.

Have you ever been to a Rendezvous?

-SpartanOC

Im in there multiple times a week..... and when Im leaving around noon, (its HOT!) others are going in.
People do search all summer long. The heat does chase away the less motivated. Natives lived there year round.....

 

[cuzimloony]

That’s amazing intel. Obviously backed by historical documentation. Some sort of record of Waltz uncle being the oldest man alive and traveling to Arizona. Maybe Waltz uncle suffered from mercury poisoning.
I’d love to hear more on this theory. And you know things like critical texts and historical records.
So where exactly did you extract this hidden knowledge?
Realistically mercury early on would have had to of been shipped in as the deposits hadn’t been readily discovered or distributed through the region during Waltz time. Yes he could have been exposed at the Vulture but his role in that mine would have limited his mercury exposure.
Now don’t get me wrong. I love a good troll. But if you’re gonna troll you gotta build into it. Set some bait walk em in and then run with it. Not just come in with something this weak.
Don’t worry. I’m nice. You troll away and I’ll coach you up. Tell you how to improve on it. Maybe in your pessimism it might trigger a thought for me. If it can be destroyed then it’s probably not good evidence right. Kisses!

Uh oh.....someome just burned a valuable bridge........
You've been studying this for years, but never heard of Greg? Where have you been studying? Do you know who sarge is? You call him a troll? Maybe a little ruff and scruff, but thats called being a man. Rough and scruff is normal for men.
If you REALLY want to study this, you'll find Greg.
Im not arguing with you and I wish you luck....but it sure was jaw dropping (slightly) to see someone schluff off a thunter who has ACTUALLY been studying this, so readily.
He dropped a lot of clues there for ya...... if you haven't been to Greg's library, then how do you know what documents do and dont exist? How can you be so sarcastic when you are clearly the new guy. (Yay it's not me anymore!) There is no better of repository of Superstition knowledge/documents/history, than Greg. (Edit...Im throwing Jack San Felice into the "no better repository" category too. Jack is a wealth of knowledge.)
It's not "hidden knowledge." It's at Greg's.