Earliest Clues

[IrishMik]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

IrishMik

I would start with P.C. Bicknell. He was one if the not the first - to mention it in newsprint.
I agree with you - start with the basics, as there is a ton of misinformation out there regarding the LDM.
-SpartanOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

Stripping everything back what are the earliest clues? Is there anything else outside the Bark Notes that count as 3rd generation clues/documentation. What exists for 1st and 2nd Gen clues/documentation?
1st Gen Waltz
2nd Julia Rhiney
3rd Bark

Listening to many of the old school Dutch Hunters there seems to be either a gap in what’s available or confusion.
For instance the “light shines into mine”. I’ve heard some say it’s a sunset clue others a sunrise clue. That makes a big difference in positioning within the range.
And please none of the equinox or solstice stuff. Waltz was a simple man. He wasn’t star charting or using calculus. I’m trying to strip everything down to the bare bones original clue sets. Thanks.

IrishMik

I would also say - Welcome to the forum.
-SpartanOC

 

[IrishMik]

IrishMik

I would start with P.C. Bicknell. He was one if the not the first - to mention it in newsprint.
I agree with you - start with the basics, as there is a ton of misinformation out there regarding the LDM.
-SpartanOC

What I’ve gotten from Bicknell is his material was designed to sell to outlets which in turn tends to lead to the addition of adjectives or assumed place names etc. These types of things can drastically change a search area. Do notes or anything like that exist from Bicknell that he used to write from?

 

[IrishMik]

IrishMik

I would also say - Welcome to the forum.
-SpartanOC

Thanks. Can you provide some clarity specifically on the “lighting” clue?

 

[SPARTANOC]

What I’ve gotten from Bicknell is his material was designed to sell to outlets which in turn tends to lead to the addition of adjectives or assumed place names etc. These types of things can drastically change a search area. Do notes or anything like that exist from Bicknell that he used to write from?

IrishMik

He wrote a couple of articles on the LDM early on. I will say though, don't believe everything that's out there, but you can obtain some good intel from some of the writers who've written about this Legend. I tend to draw my own conclusions regardless of who writes what. That being said; there is a lot of crap out there written to look truthful, but sadly not.

There are some good reads out there. I'm sure you know the common ones. It is good to get a good feel of what's been written the last 130+ years.

Have you been out there, to The Superstition Mountains in AZ?

-SpartanOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

Thanks. Can you provide some clarity specifically on the “lighting” clue?

IrishMik

It is said - that the Sun will set and at a certain time of the year, will reflect off the opening of the LDM mine. Personally, I believe that's a bogus clue. I wouldn't hold to that one. It is slipping my mind as to whom wrote that originally - but in all honesty, it's a fake clue.
-SpartanOC

 

[IrishMik]

IrishMik

He wrote a couple of articles on the LDM early on. I will say though, don't believe everything that's out there, but you can obtain some good intel from some of the writers who've written about this Legend. I tend to draw my own conclusions regardless of who writes what. That being said; there is a lot of crap out there written to look truthful, but sadly not.

There are some good reads out there. I'm sure you know the common ones. It is good to get a good feel of what's been written the last 130+ years.

Have you been out there, to The Superstition Mountains in AZ?

-SpartanOC

Yeah I live down here. About 20 minutes out from them. Been studying the LDM for several years with no progress. Decided to strip it back to basics and take out all the extra noise. I have a pretty good working theory but since it’s summer and can’t go out there I’m trying to get more confirmation or blow my theory up.
My goal is to get as close to the basics as possible and work it from there. Seems to be effective. I just like to have as many accurate sources as possible. I firmly believe Julia and Rhiney miss ordered the clues and got lost.
So I’m trying to re order them and walk it back in.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Yeah I live down here. About 20 minutes out from them. Been studying the LDM for several years with no progress. Decided to strip it back to basics and take out all the extra noise. I have a pretty good working theory but since it’s summer and can’t go out there I’m trying to get more confirmation or blow my theory up.
My goal is to get as close to the basics as possible and work it from there. Seems to be effective. I just like to have as many accurate sources as possible. I firmly believe Julia and Rhiney miss ordered the clues and got lost.
So I’m trying to re order them and walk it back in.

IrishMik

That's a good approach. Keep it simple, but keep an open mind. Remember, some here on TN and others, have been at this Legend for most of their adult lives and have found nothing. Those that do find something seem to always keep things close to themselves, for obvious reasons.

As for Summer temps - many won't go in, but there are diehards that will, amazingly.

Have you ever been to a Rendezvous?

-SpartanOC

 

[IrishMik]

IrishMik

That's a good approach. Keep it simple, but keep an open mind. Remember, some here on TN and others, have been at this Legend for most of their adult lives and have found nothing. Those that do find something seem to always keep things close to themselves, for obvious reasons.

As for Summer temps - many won't go in, but there are diehards that will, amazingly.

Have you ever been to a Rendezvous?

-SpartanOC

No haven’t been to the rendezvous. Possibly this year. No if I find something solid I’m not keeping it to myself. Truth is I wouldn’t be where I am in this without others sharing. If not for Wayne Tuttle most of us wouldn’t have access to the Bark notes. Let alone the countless others who have pointed towards resources or eliminated certain ideas. I’m a firm believer in if you find it then you better bring the guys who dedicated their lives to this out to see it and validate it. Otherwise what’s the point in finding it?

 

[SPARTANOC]

No haven’t been to the rendezvous. Possibly this year. No if I find something solid I’m not keeping it to myself. Truth is I wouldn’t be where I am in this without others sharing. If not for Wayne Tuttle most of us wouldn’t have access to the Bark notes. Let alone the countless others who have pointed towards resources or eliminated certain ideas. I’m a firm believer in if you find it then you better bring the guys who dedicated their lives to this out to see it and validate it. Otherwise what’s the point in finding it?

IrishMik

I like your approach. Some of us here, have tried to start a new culture in how things are shared/developed. In looking back in time, many of the old timers just kept things to themselves 100%, locking out anyone else that might be fishing for information. I get it, gold fever and all - but that old way of thinking limited those old timers. That's just my Humble opinion.
I would say - start with Rendezvous, as there are those 'old timers' that still go to it, but they are also passing away so quickly. We've lost some good 'Dutch Hunters' this year alone.
-SpartanOC

 

[IrishMik]

IrishMik

It is said - that the Sun will set and at a certain time of the year, will reflect off the opening of the LDM mine. Personally, I believe that's a bogus clue. I wouldn't hold to that one. It is slipping my mind as to whom wrote that originally - but in all honesty, it's a fake clue.
-SpartanOC

Could be relevant but over done. If you’re going to use sunlight as a marker which has been done in land navigation pretty consistently it’s going to be a year round marker. Not a precision marker. That’s not how it works. I’ve heard sunrise and sunset. That changes east or west facing of a canyon.
I’d argue from a land nav perspective it’s more probable to be sunset not sunrise. To catch sunrise that means you’d have to reach the site before sunrise which means traveling in the dark.
Sunset means the other clues walk you in during normal travel light allows you to set up final approach. Sunrise light clues are traditionally much more rare due to those factors.
I’m just trying to confirm or get a higher confidence in orientation.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Could be relevant but over done. If you’re going to use sunlight as a marker which has been done in land navigation pretty consistently it’s going to be a year round marker. Not a precision marker. That’s not how it works. I’ve heard sunrise and sunset. That changes east or west facing of a canyon.
I’d argue from a land nav perspective it’s more probable to be sunset not sunrise. To catch sunrise that means you’d have to reach the site before sunrise which means traveling in the dark.
Sunset means the other clues walk you in during normal travel light allows you to set up final approach. Sunrise light clues are traditionally much more rare due to those factors.
I’m just trying to confirm or get a higher confidence in orientation.

IrishMik

Yeah - I would hold to sunset as apposed to sunrise. I've heard it as sunset many more times, than I've heard sunrise.
-SpartanOC

 

[sgtfda]

The first and best clue is Waltz suffered from mercury poisoning from exposure in the goldfields. Garmans uncle stayed at his farm on his way west. Said he did not trust him because he was nuts. End of story.

 

[IrishMik]

The first and best clue is Waltz suffered from mercury poisoning from exposure in the goldfields. Garmans uncle stayed at his farm on his way west. Said he did not trust him because he was nuts. End of story.

That’s amazing intel. Obviously backed by historical documentation. Some sort of record of Waltz uncle being the oldest man alive and traveling to Arizona. Maybe Waltz uncle suffered from mercury poisoning.
I’d love to hear more on this theory. And you know things like critical texts and historical records.
So where exactly did you extract this hidden knowledge?
Realistically mercury early on would have had to of been shipped in as the deposits hadn’t been readily discovered or distributed through the region during Waltz time. Yes he could have been exposed at the Vulture but his role in that mine would have limited his mercury exposure.
Now don’t get me wrong. I love a good troll. But if you’re gonna troll you gotta build into it. Set some bait walk em in and then run with it. Not just come in with something this weak.
Don’t worry. I’m nice. You troll away and I’ll coach you up. Tell you how to improve on it. Maybe in your pessimism it might trigger a thought for me. If it can be destroyed then it’s probably not good evidence right. Kisses!

 

[IrishMik]

That’s amazing intel. Obviously backed by historical documentation. Some sort of record of Waltz uncle being the oldest man alive and traveling to Arizona. Maybe Waltz uncle suffered from mercury poisoning.
I’d love to hear more on this theory. And you know things like critical texts and historical records.
So where exactly did you extract this hidden knowledge?
Realistically mercury early on would have had to of been shipped in as the deposits hadn’t been readily discovered or distributed through the region during Waltz time. Yes he could have been exposed at the Vulture but his role in that mine would have limited his mercury exposure.
Now don’t get me wrong. I love a good troll. But if you’re gonna troll you gotta build into it. Set some bait walk em in and then run with it. Not just come in with something this weak.
Don’t worry. I’m nice. You troll away and I’ll coach you up. Tell you how to improve on it. Maybe in your pessimism it might trigger a thought for me. If it can be destroyed then it’s probably not good evidence right. Kisses!

If you are referring to Robert GarMINs uncle then maybe you can’t point to something solid there. But it has to be beyond speculation.
Then you get into the Holmes vs Patrasch of the account. Which muddies the water and we get into 4th and 5th gen lore/clues.
I’m a bit of an apologist which means outside of 3rd gen it becomes increasingly more probable of variation and embellishment.
I E. Take the King James Translation. This was created from the Latin vulgate. Not the original text. Therefore it’s an interpretation of an interpretation. Or translation of a translation. It loses accuracy and depth.

 

[sgtfda]

If you are referring to Robert GarMINs uncle then maybe you can’t point to something solid there. But it has to be beyond speculation.
Then you get into the Holmes vs Patrasch of the account. Which muddies the water and we get into 4th and 5th gen lore/clues.
I’m a bit of an apologist which means outside of 3rd gen it becomes increasingly more probable of variation and embellishment.
I E. Take the King James Translation. This was created from the Latin vulgate. Not the original text. Therefore it’s an interpretation of an interpretation. Or translation of a translation. It loses accuracy and depth.

Bob Garman wrote a story about it. I have a copy. All miners used mercury back then. Believe what you want.

 

[sdcfia]

Bob Garman wrote a story about it. I have a copy. All miners used mercury back then. Believe what you want.

Yes, yes - we all do just that, don't we? It wouldn't be popular around here to say that all "evidence" of an alleged "LDM" was sourced from the ravings of a madman. That box of ore under Waltz's death bed could have been from "his mine", just hoarded Vulture Mine highgrade, or stolen from a murder victim. After all, Waltz was the only person alive at the time who could claim one degree of separation from the golden promised land. Everything else, by definition, is hearsay, and hearsay is fraught with reliability problems.

 

[IrishMik]

Bob Garman wrote a story about it. I have a copy. All miners used mercury back then. Believe what you want.

Will you share that document so myself and others can read it as well? In the world of research it makes a massive difference when backing up a claim to also produce the source material. With technology today it’s easier than ever to share material without having to relinquish it. A simple photo or scan allows for this. Thanks.

 

[IrishMik]

Yes, yes - we all do just that, don't we? It wouldn't be popular around here to say that all "evidence" of an alleged "LDM" was sourced from the ravings of a madman. That box of ore under Waltz's death bed could have been from "his mine", just hoarded Vulture Mine highgrade, or stolen from a murder victim. After all, Waltz was the only person alive at the time who could claim one degree of separation from the golden promised land. Everything else, by definition, is hearsay, and hearsay is fraught with reliability problems.

As far as I’m aware the gold of wars has been tested and the geological finger print doesn’t match any known mine. They’ve compared the vulture finger print and it’s not it a match. Is that information incorrect?