found old gun not sure what it is

[bdb]

me and my son found this it is a foot long looks to be 22 size cal it looks to say J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co Chicopee Falls, MA 14 1/2 ok thank all of you .i have took it apart.i would have liked to keep as it did not work but it is what it is.thanks to all.

 

[Montauk3]

Shouldn't that be handed in? unusuall find

SS

We live in America! We are citizens! We are not subjects like the english.

 

[DigginThePast]

It is not a case of legality within a State but the legality on the Federal level and the Federal law trumps Sate law. Readers of this thread need to understand this and know they need to be in compliance with Federal law also, not just State law.

Bch – I'm hardheaded on this subject because the fines are so great, $250,000/10 years. In reading about your encounter with a short barreled shot gun in your back seat. I have no reason to doubt you nor am I doing so. BUT, you were extremely lucky that the officer didn't know/care the full law or you may not be here conversing on the subject. I don't believe I stated that this gun is specifically illegal in Wyoming, just that you needed to heed Federal law also (If you are in violation of Federal law then the gun is illegal no matter where you are (further, suppose you were in New Jersey with this rifle or your shot gun you would be facing State and Federal charges)). In your case, had the State officer requested to see the tax stamp for your weapon you would have been in trouble and yes a Federal agent would have made the arrest.

I find it of no surprise that an officer doesn't know all the firearms laws, this happens often. I've had local police ask me questions about firearms including certain legalities. In Ct we still have an “Assault Weapons Ban” that preceded the Federal ban that has expired, many officers are confused about specifics of the law. Across the street from me is an FBI agent that I have talked at length with. Without going into specifics he has told me of wrongful arrests he has personally seen made on weapons charges because so many agents don't know all the laws.

Following are a couple sites with information on how to legally purchase a rifle such as the one in this thread. For the record, the rifle in this thread could never be legal as is due to the fact that it was made in the current configuration without following proper procedure.

http://www.class3weapons.com/class_3_faq_class_3_weapons.html
Please visit the above site and scroll down to “Process for Obtaining a Class 3, Title 2 or NFA Weapon”
You will read that you must carry the tax stamp with the NFA item at all times in case the legality of the item is questioned by law enforcement.

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/states/wyoming/ - This site supports the claim that a rifle such as the one in this thread is legal in Wyoming (but you still must be in compliance with Federal regulations).
Wyoming (WY) What NFA Firearms can I own?

There are several type of Class 3 items that are restricted by the National Firearms Act.
Each state can impose additional restrictions on the sale, purchase, and transfer of class 3 firearms in addition to the compliance that is required with the national Firearms Act.
In Wyoming you can own the following items that are regulated the the National Firearms Act
Machine Guns
Silencers
Any Other Weapon (AOW)
Destructive Devices (DD)
Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS)
Short Barreled Rifles (SBR)

In Wyoming you cannot own the following NFA restricted items.
None

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I think you are getting a little carried away. First of all, I'm pretty sure we are not talking about a machine gun.

Other than that, one thing that everyone "assumes" is that you cannot own certain guns - but what the law actually says is (Federal)

"The requirement of registration is contained in, 26 U.S.C. 5841 et seq. Cases prosecuted under this chapter generally concern short-barreled
shotguns and rifles, silencers or destructive devices. For instance, it is a crime merely to possess a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen
inches in length, not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record

That is NOT the same as not being able to own them. And so it goes with most (not all, of course) weapons - You can own machine-guns, AK-47's - the whole bit - as long as you PAY Mr. Federal Government a few hundred dollars for the transfer.

Of course - certain people are not allowed weapons, and you still cannot have a bomb - well, even bombs you can have - they just have to be registered.

It is illegal, Federally, to own a weapon that has had the numbers taken off - and you cannot sell a weapon that has had the numbers removed, or changed.

The goverment writes these regulations with the anti-gun crowd in mind, imo. They want to make it sound like you cannot do anything - but, the bottom line to most gun sales is ----- money, money, money.

B

 

[blurr]

Does anyone remember why the feds were trying to arrest the guy from Ruby Ridge? You can all argue constitutional law till the cows come home. The fact is that Federal law trumps state law. Sorry.....

John

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Check your history a little more - you will find that the Ruby Ridge incident (and the Waco incident, by the way) had to do with them having unlawful weapons - but because they hadn't paid the TRANSFER TAX - on the guns. Didn't have a thing to do with the guns - THAT - is the Federal law.

B

 

[blurr]

Check your history a little more - you will find that the Ruby Ridge incident (and the Waco incident, by the way) had to do with them having unlawful weapons - but because they hadn't paid the TRANSFER TAX - on the guns. Didn't have a thing to do with the guns - THAT - is the Federal law.

B

Sorry Beth,

I remember that the guy tried to sell an ATF agent a sawed off shotgun. I must have a bad memory.

John

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Blurr,

Actually, you may be right (about the sawed-off shotgun) - but they were already after them and looking for something to get them on.

I have to remember that it was a big old mess, with lots of excuses and, what I consider, a breach of their rights by our government. They had 50 thousand (of course, exaggerated number) excuses for doing what they did. I remember that the news people where talking to a few different government officials, and each one had something different to say, depending on the person or the interviewed party, or when the interviews were going on.

Frankly, the whole deal STILL ticks me off. I kept a scrapbook of all the different stories that came out of that whole mess.

B

 

[DigginThePast]

Here is the Federal law for anyone interested in reading it. The prohibited guns in question fall under Internal Revenue Code, so yes it is a tax issue, I believe I have mentioned the tax stamps in my previous posts. The Federal government ("due to gangster activity") added this tax to certain weapons because they couldn't do an outright ban due to the 2nd amendment. Some States choose to further regulate the firearms that fall under this code but you must still be in compliance with the Federal laws.

If you have a firearm that is defined under this law, you better have the accompanying tax stamp if you are ever questioned by law enforcement.

U.S. CODE TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sup_01_26_10_E_20_53.html

Definitions - TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter B > PART I > § 5845

mrs.o - Re post #84. It may appear that I am getting carried away to some but I'd rather have that than have someone reading this thread get into trouble because they were given bad information or misunderstood a post. I have tried to point out that these guns can be legally owned if all laws are being followed.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It is not a case of legality within a State but the legality on the Federal level and the Federal law trumps Sate law. Readers of this thread need to understand this and know they need to be in compliance with Federal law also, not just State law.

Bch – I'm hardheaded on this subject because the fines are so great, $250,000/10 years. In reading about your encounter with a short barreled shot gun in your back seat. I have no reason to doubt you nor am I doing so. BUT, you were extremely lucky that the officer didn't know/care the full law or you may not be here conversing on the subject. I don't believe I stated that this gun is specifically illegal in Wyoming, just that you needed to heed Federal law also (If you are in violation of Federal law then the gun is illegal no matter where you are (further, suppose you were in New Jersey with this rifle or your shot gun you would be facing State and Federal charges)). In your case, had the State officer requested to see the tax stamp for your weapon you would have been in trouble and yes a Federal agent would have made the arrest.

Hello DigginThePast. First of all thank you for taking the time to search down and post links of pertinent value.

Second, I realize I was lucky and could have easily been arrestedand I had no business transporting that gun in my car. The incident happened 30 years ago. Like someone said, each of us has our own comfort level with risk. I dont know what state bdb is in, but I was trying to make the point that the risk involved in keeping this cool find would be different depending upon what state he lives in. If I lived in Wyoming I wouldnt worry. If I lived in New York or Jersey, I might consider welding it, burying it or tossing it in the ocean.

Thanks for posting the Federal law and not belittling me about basic High School Civics class. . I think that about covers what I asked for.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Oh one more thing. Is there something missing with the firing pin/hammer? If this gun is unoperable would it still be illegal? How much has to be missing to make it legal?

 

[DigginThePast]

bch - "I was trying to make the point that the risk involved in keeping this cool find would be different depending upon what state he lives in."

Understood. From my end I want readers to know all the risks and penalties involved.

I'm involved in firearms on a daily basis and take giving advise and sumarising laws very seriously. I'm also used to those that come to me taking my word as "gospel" and following it rather than having to back up what I'm saying but that is do to my local reputation which means zero as an unknown on an internet board.

 

[DigginThePast]

Oh one more thing. Is there something missing with the firing pin/hammer? If this gun is unoperable would it still be illegal? How much has to be missing to make it legal?

The OP's gun in its current configuration is not legal to own without the tax stamp that would have been issued when it was converted into a SBR. I don't recommend doing it to shoot but I have taken guns in worse condition and made them functional. These guns usually had sentimental value and someone wanted to preserve what they had. Missing from the hammer is a small knob that protrudes that aids in loading the gun, minor issue, a nail could be used as a crude replacement. For this gun to be "legal" the barrel would need to be over 16" long with and overall length of 26" for the weapon or weld it up solid so it is essentially nothing more than a shaped piece of solid steel.

Here are a few pics of what the gun should look like. Check out the close up of the receiver for the missing parts. They are a very cool little youth rifle.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I guess what Im asking theoretically, is an obvious non-operable sawed off rifle illegal? Is a sawed off gun that cannot fire illegal? I guess it depends on what is missing.

 

[DigginThePast]

I guess what Im asking theoretically, is an obvious non-operable sawed off rifle illegal? Is a sawed off gun that cannot fire illegal? I guess it depends on what is missing.

Thats a gray area that really can only be taken on a case by case basis. Essentially if you possess all the parts (or even certain parts) to build a sawed off gun (even when not assembled) then the Feds can make the claim that you possess said sawed off gun. The gun needs to rendered permanently inoperable, weld the hammer and weld the barrel so that it is nothing more than a round bar. If it does not fire but can easily be made to fire then it is not legal.

 

[j.n.]

"A well regulated Melita, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed" Simple to read and understand. Only States the and the citizens have right to say whether a citizen may or may not own firearms.

Having said that, I would not like to see anyone persecuted under the federal law as it will remain until
someone has the will and money to challenge this and Supreme Court Justices who do not cower behind their robes of justice.

j.n.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re-post #84? Absolutely not. What I highlighted is word for word.

B

 

[DigginThePast]

Re-post #84? Absolutely not. What I highlighted is word for word.

B

Please accept my apologies on that one. I went back and read my post and it didn't come out quite right. I didn't mean to infer that you had posted bad info, your info was correct and actually supported information that I had posted. What I was referring to was why it may seem to some that I had "gotten carried away".

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Sometimes its difficult, especially when there is a fast-moving discussion, to keep track of everything - especially when there is 10 posts between what one person says, and where someone else answers!

Sorry I misunderstood -- onward and upward.


B

 

[j.n.]

I forgot to add to my answer to this post (2/13/10, that this was probably intended as a snake gun no mater the the caliber you would use bird shot. Cutting down this gun would make it pretty well useless for any thing but a snake getter. Just a guess on my part.

j.n.

 

[TiredIron]

Sometimes its difficult, especially when there is a fast-moving discussion, to keep track of everything - especially when there is 10 posts between what one person says, and where someone else answers!

Sorry I misunderstood -- onward and upward.


B

Absolutely... I have to assume that's why "Monty" went BONKERS with his
ludicrous comment about being "Completely Offended" that I would think that TNET'rs would deliberately being lying to me about information on this forum. Anyone who had been reading the whole thread before I pulled my posts knew that I never insinuated anyone was lying. My only complaint was that people were making legal claims that had no credence or references to back them. Its was just unfortunate that Monty pulled the trigger before knowing the facts of the thread.
So yes.......this happens with looong threads.