Going all-metal Vs. Surface Elimination

[Texasgopher]

So here is what I've been thinking. The oldest park in my town was developed in 1890. It is 4 city blocks by 2 city blocks in size. Seated coins have been found there and 1 gold coin that I know about. My hunting buddies and myself have found our fair share of silver there but nothing older then a mercury dime. Real old coins run pretty deep. Just from personal digs I have found a 1920 wheat at 7 in.

(Accurate, 7 in! Not a guess. My machine said 7-8 in and I measured with my digger at 7 in. It has inch marks in it. I think that anyone can ONLY measure accurately when they dig down and see the coin in the dirt or get it in their intact plug. If you dig up a coin and find it in loose dirt that you have dug but your hole "looks" 8 in deep, this is NOT accurate, in my opinion. The coin could have been in the side of the hole much shallower and you just knocked it loose as you kept digging deeper. I think the way some people measure is too much a guess some times.)

ANYWAY, I also dug a 1936 silver quarter here at 7 in (accurately.)
Both the penny and the quarter was a bell tone in only one direction. So I've been wondering if there might be some more good coins at this depth that just aren't reading as good as I would think they would. I can't imagine anything being deeper than that....but who knows.

So I've really been wanting to find either a barber or Indian coin at this park but just have never made it happen. So I was thinking of really trying to use the all-metal mode and learn it's secrets. Everyone says that it goes deeper in all-metal mode. I have only used it a few times but have never made a commitment to really use and learn it.

My initial thought is that running in the all-metal mode is going to be like learning a whole new detector. Anybody out there agree or disagree with that thought?

Based on the information I provided do you think that all-metal is the way to go? I have been MDing this park for about three years now. The old coins are few and far between but they are still there. Does anybody out there only use all-metal or most of the time?

My technique would be to run in all-metal and dig every signal between nickel and dollar but only if it's 4+ inches deep. You can't use surface elimination with all-metal mode.

So my other thought was to turn the sensitivity up just a little higher than I normally would, run with Surface Elimination set on 4 and dig the same range of targets as before. I have used Surf Elim before and it's probably psychological, but I never seem to find much with it on and when I turn it off I seem to find much more all the sudden (within the range I have set it, for surf elim.) Now it could be purely in my head and I just need to take time and go nice and slow and trust my machine.

Which would you do?

Also, This is the trashest park in town and has been pounded for years by anyone that owns a MD around. Most get discouraged with the trash which is why I think I still find some keepers now and then.


TG

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

First off, I wouldn't trust any machine/any brand's "surface elimination" (aka surface blankers, etc...). They can only work for isolated signals (ie.: nix out any loud signals) but will start to fail when targets are mixed up, and a little mental separating is involved. You are letting a computer guess for you, and it will fail when a loud signal (say, a zinc penny, for instance) is nearby a deep sweet silver signal. There is also some false perceptions by some that they are somehow "seeing through" the blanked strata. This is also not true. Anything masked, continues to be masked, and you are in no way seeing beyond that top # of inches, as if those shallow targets ceased to exist

But as to your question about going all-metal, it would depend on how much trash is in the park. Because obviously if it is littered with little stuff, deep nails, etc... then you might go crazy doing this. To a degree you can hone in on deep sounding "round" type smoother shapes, and to a degree you can mentally pass shallow stuff, or deep stuff that just doesn't "sound" round. So yes, in some places this has been done. But it all depends on how tell-tale your all-metal audio is, and how junky the park is. Experience is the only teacher here.

To be honest with you, 7" (and only getting a one-way signal at that) does not seem like you are getting much depth. 7" is an EASY 2-way repeatable signal on the Explorer, with accurate TID to boot. Heck even 8" on dimes is an easy feat, while retaining fairly accurate TID. Only when you get past 8" in the turf with the exp, does it start to get difficult, IMHO. So ..... with all due respect for Garrett, I do not think they have excelled in this deep turf niche, even with their top-of-the-line models. I have seen side-by-side comparisons of many machines trying to correctly "call" deep turf signals (in conditions and parks like you describe) and the Explorer comes away the winner, hands down. And as you surmise, there is probably an entire new "belt" of coins in that next inch or two waiting to be tapped, if you are the first person(s) in there with a machine that can do it.

You will certainly not be able to pick up an Explorer for the first time and perform this 8" - with-ease trick. Because it is so sound-specific that you will probably hate it at first. About the only way is to hook up with someone who is proficient (ie.: not just a sandbox hunter, but someone who is deep-turf-proficient) with it, and trade-off signals to compare (both good and bad to compare). After a few hours of hearing what a deepie sounds like, the "lights will go on", and you'll be hooked.

 

[Texasgopher]

Tom, Thank you so much for you in depth thoughtful reply, and so quick! You have provided me some very good information and a lot to think about. I agree with your assessment of surf elim vs All-metal and I think I will really have to commit to learning the all-metal if I want some of the deep ones. I am very appreciative of you generous respone and will disregard nothing you have said.



TG

 

[Iron Patch]

Tom, Thank you so much for you in depth thoughtful reply, and so quick! You have provided me some very good information and a lot to think about. I agree with your assessment of surf elim vs All-metal and I think I will really have to commit to learning the all-metal if I want some of the deep ones. I am very appreciative of you generous respone and will disregard nothing you have said.



TG

I have many hours on a GTI, and many doing a park similar in age to what you describe. Your one way tones are most likely a result of the coin being on edge and that is why an explorer can see them better. Even some on an angle a GTI will be strong from once direction, somewhat broken in the other, and probably mimic a pulltab/trash reading on the screen by the way it jumps. Those Garretts perform ok in fields and places where you want to dig all non iron targets, but it's very tough to pick and choose your spots in a park. A good part of the reason it's hard to work with is the lack of a good modulated audio to give you the small hints something is deep. Again to compare with an Explorer, I can set my gain (target boost) to max and still be able to tell the real deep stuff. If I drop my gain, then it becomes if more obvious, you just have to listen closer because the tone is more subtle. (depending on how how you drop the gain)

As for the surface elimination it's as worthless as the detector talking to you, and in my opinion the imaging too. The all-metal might have it's place somewhere, but it's one of those ideas that looks much better on paper for most sites than it is actually detecting them. Having said all that, I sat here for 5 minutes trying to come up with an idea to possibly use the all-metal, disc. mode, and pinpoint in some type of combination to solve your problem, but I couldn't do it. I think with the technology of the GTI you are forced to become a digging machine and see what happens. I don't suppose you can turn off the target boost on the 2500? I assume not, and is one mistake Garrett made on the GTI because it would be some help. Unfortunately it still wouldn't make those coins on edge, or angles, any better sounding.

PS... I of course posted what I believe about that detector, but certainly don't let that bring you down. My detecting bud used a 1500 for about 6 years (up to 2 years ago) and had success basically everywhere he went. In fact, because we have different styles he usually finds more coins and I have used an explorer for about 9 years and think I know it pretty well.

 

[Texasgopher]

I have many hours on a GTI, and many doing a park similar in age to what you describe. Your one way tones are most likely a result of the coin being on edge and that is why an explorer can see them better. Even some on an angle a GTI will be strong from once direction, somewhat broken in the other, and probably mimic a pulltab/trash reading on the scteen by the way it jumps. Those Garretts perform ok in fields and places where you want to dig all non iron targets, but it's very tough to pick and choose your spots in a park. A good part of the reason it's hard to work with is the lack of a good modulated audio to give you the small hints something is deep. Again to compare with an Explorer, I can set my gain (target boost) to max and still be able to tell the real deep stuff. If I drop my gain, then it becomes if more obvious, you just have to listen closer because the tone is more subtle. (depending on how how you drop the gain)

As for the surface elimination it's as worthless as the detector talking to you, and in my opinion the imaging too. The all-metal might have it's place somewhere, but it's one of those ideas that looks much better on paper for most sites than it is actually detecting them. Having said all that, I sat here for 5 minutes trying to come up with an idea to possibly use the all-metal, disc. mode, and pinpoint in some type of combination to solve your problem, but I couldn't do it. I think with the technology of the GTI you are forced to become a digging machine and see what happens. I don't suppose you can turn off the target boost on the 2500? I assume not, and is one mistake Garrett made on the GTI because it would be some help. Unfortunately it still wouldn't make those coins on edge, or angles, any better sounding.

PS... I of course posted what I believe about that detector, but certainly don't let that bring you down. My detecting bud used a 1500 for about 6 years (up to 2 years ago) and had success basically everywhere he went. In fact, because we have different styles he usually finds more coins and I have used an explorer for about 9 years and think I know it pretty well.
[/quote]

Wow first let me say I'm shocked to merit a responce from both Tom AND Ironpatch. I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion on stuff like this highly.

Thank you for the thought you put in your post! Both of the coins I referred to were almost on edge. I agree with you about the gain and audio boost settings. I do see how modulated audio could be very helpfull giving a hint when seeking the real deep or on edge coins. The thing is though, without a point of reference I don't know if there are coins deeper then what I am getting out of this park or not. All my hunting buddies also use GTIs. I don't know anyone else that uses a different machine or at what depths they are finding their old coins. It's possible that 7 inches is the deepest layer of coins. I don't automatically assume that a ML would find deeper coins in the dirt I have here, just because someone on here said they found a merc at 10+ inches in their state. BUT this is possible as well and I'm not ruling it out. I'm open minded and I simply want to know the best facts so I can find the best stuff. I'm not really brand loyal. I've just never tried anything else. I do love my 2500 and have done very well. But I can't just go buy an SE to try. Although I would like to. There is not a single machine yet that can find it all while telling you, without fault, what it is.

Again thank you for giving my situation so much though. I've been thinking also and here are some more of my thoughts. A lot of people say that ML machines ie:SE find deeper silver. Are they really trying to say that ML can give a better target ID at depth than GTI? (we are obviously comparing the 2500 to SE now) For instance might the GTI pick up the target just as well as the SE but may not display it as a good target like the SE will. The audio boost could very well be doing it's job just fine while still not showing up as good target or giving a bell tone. If this is the case, which I'm thinking probably is, then if I want to find some of the old, deep, on edge stuff then all I need to do is concentrate on deep/iffy targets and get to digging. Also in which case it wouldn't really matter if I used all-metal mode or not. Although from what I've read it is probably what I will do because it goes deeper. The downside, which you already stated, is that there is very little audio indication of what the target is. Other then I could probably tell if it was a pretty big object. So, I think I will try all-metal mode, forget the display and dig anything that says it is super deep.....say 5+ inches. An old coin could still be as shallow as 5 and read strange if it was on edge.

What do you guys think? This will be a lot of digging and a lot of trash but I'm young AND patient. (two traits that do not often go together, or so I hear.) I will even dig iron signals as it could be masking a good target. Now of course there could be something shallow masking something deep but I think I'll try this first before I start digging absolutely everything. This will be a learning experience for sure. And I'm fine with leaving a good looking target that is not as deep...for now. Who knows how many really old coins I've passed over because they didn't sound good to me. I'll let y'all know how it goes. I should be able to start trying this tomorrow for a few hours at least. If y'all have any other thoughts or tips I would welcome them.

Oh, also. Do y'all have any thoughts on what coil so start on? I am now thinking I may try the 12.5 because in essence I'm only looking for deep signals. It is a very trashy park like I said and it would be hard to get target separation but I could steer clear of the trashest parts and save those for my stock coil and my 5in excelerator....so I will probably end up using all three in different areas. I just really want to prove that I can find a deep, older then what I've been finding, coin to start with.

Well, if you read all this, I thank you simply for that. As always any thoughts are welcome.
TG

 

[Tom_in_CA]

TG, answering your questions/points one-at-a-time:

You say: " ...I don't know if there are coins deeper then what I am getting out of this park or not " Well, if the park is many decades older than the age of the coins you are reaching, and if the depth is very correlated with age (ie.: the older the coins, the deeper they tend to be), then I'd say you've got an un-tapped layer deeper down. If, as you say, it was developed in the 1890s, and if any time you get back near the turn of the century, your coins tend to be slick (ie.: worn barbers from the '90s or '00s that were most likely actually lost in the 1920s), then I'd say you can get more coins deeper, if you can reach deeper.

Next you say: "I can't just go buy an SE to try." Yes. And even if you could, I doubt that you'd go out and start finding old coins right away. The Explorer is very sound specific, and you will most likely hate it at first. In fact, you'll probably do worse at first. But I guarantee you, that if you had a good explorer user there (not a sandbox hunter, but someone who really knows how to get deepies in the turf), and if you and him compared side by side signals, I bet there's be spots he marks that you would be tempted to say "I'd never have heard that if it hadn't been pointed out" or "I don't hear anything" etc... And you'll watch him dig an oldie at 8" or more. Believe me, I was dragged kicking and screaming away from my whites years ago, disbelieving this till I had it rubbed in my nose one too many times. And yes, there are probably other machines that can get that deep on coins too, but as you muse: CAN THEY DO IT WHILE RETAINING A REASONABLE TID? I mean, there are lots of machines that can pick up coins to 10" deep or whatever. But the problem becomes that everything after about 6" starts to have the same sound, with no discernable difference. So some deepseeking class machines have their drawbacks. The explorer though tends to retain fairly reliable high verses mid verse low conductor guestimates, to a fuller length of the depth, IMHO (once you know the tooty-fluty sounds)

You seem to indicate that you do not know of any explorer users in your area of your state. This is not unusual, geographically speaking, because often times some brands just took foot-hold in certain areas of the country, more-so than others. So in some areas, you tend to see a lot of Tesoros. In others, lots of Whites. In others, every club member seems to be swinging a Fisher, and so forth. So yes, there are some areas of the USA where the parks theoretically have tended to see only a certain brand or type of machine, or only certain caliber of hunters. I know one guy who flies in to east coast states, and travels all the backroads hunting old courthouse lawns, down-town parks, etc... Often-time they get in to parks where it is quite obvious that other brands/types have done a good job of getting everything from 6 or 7" and less stripped out. So they tend to get no roosies, and most of their merc's are '20s and earlier. Most of their wheaties or '20s and earlier ('cuz all the shallower '40s/50's losses were picked out). And occasionally they run into a local hunter who sees them in those old parks. The hunter's jaw drops when my friends show them their oldies. And sure enough the local guy will comment: "me and my friends here use ... [fill in the blank non-explorer machine] "

 

[Texasgopher]

Well, if the park is many decades older than the age of the coins you are reaching, and if the depth is very correlated with age (ie.: the older the coins, the deeper they tend to be), then I'd say you've got an un-tapped layer deeper down. If, as you say, it was developed in the 1890s, and if any time you get back near the turn of the century, your coins tend to be slick (ie.: worn barbers from the '90s or '00s that were most likely actually lost in the 1920s), then I'd say you can get more coins deeper, if you can reach deeper.

EXACTALY what I was thinking/feeling!! There has just been so much to say already I couldn't put that into word yet. Yes I agree with you. I think these types of coins are very likely still there.


Next you say: "I can't just go buy an SE to try." Yes. And even if you could, I doubt that you'd go out and start finding old coins right away. The Explorer is very sound specific, and you will most likely hate it at first.

Again, you put something into words that I could not. This is why I feel I need to relearn my machine on a new level if possible. Even if it means me digging everything again to learn some new leasons. Like I said, I'm fairly certain that the 2500 would still hit on a coin 8+ deep...it just may not have reasonable TID. I don't have proof...just faith in my detector. But the only way to find out is to try and dig all the deep stuff no matter the TID. Now I have never heard of problems with the depth indicator at extreme depths so I'm assuming that it will be able to still tell me accurately how deep it is.

You are right about there not being many SE users here that I know about. It mostly seems to be Garrett and White users. I have only ever seen one guy with a ML. There are some in the local club but I'm not a part of it and am not interested. There has always been something about the SE that interests me and would love to try it but like you said, it would be like starting all over. I'm loyal to research and digging history, not a brand of metal detector. For now I'm determined to find a better way to do things with what I have.

Very interesting and thanks again for all the thoughts! I have a lot to think about.
TG

 

[Texasgopher]

Well I got out and hunted for three hours. I went with my 12 inch coil and actually turned sensitivity down to 8. I figured with the bigger coil+all-metal I was going to go plenty deep and I didn't want it to false or overload being to sensitive. Going in all-metal mode the whole time. I learned a LOT about all-metal.

1. You have to swing faster than normal if you want to hear a good, distinct, crisp "blip" on small targets.

2. I was happily surprised that I could tell the difference between big targets and small targets using the technique above.

3. When you go only be sound in all-metal and ignore the TID it actually focuses you better on what a target sounds like... You may say "duh" but it's more then that. I thought the task of running in all-metal a very daunting one just thinking about it. But when I actually did it...it's like you cut down on distraction. No bell tones, No TID, just sound. It was easier than I expected.

4. You pick up EVERYTHING in all-metal mode. I would get some "good" signals that ended up to be tiny pieces of aluminum. I checked a couple before I dug them in the "all-metal" discrimination mode(not true all-metal) and they would not hit AT ALL in any direction. I actually said out loud once. "There is going to be nothing here, the true all-metal mode must be falsing" WRONG, more then once did it end up being a little piece of trash or a tiny nail. The true all-metal mode DOES NOT LIE. If it says it's there...it's there! This alone tells me that If I keep this up and keep practicing I will find an old deep coin.

Over all I'm very pleased with how it went. I didn't actually dig anything deeper than I have been. But I think that was only because I didn't go over anything deep. You have to stop at any signal that sounds small an investigate and that eats up time. But I didn't dig anything that was shallow on purpose. I did get about 7 zinc penny's but they showed to be at least 5, but they were only an inch down, so there is something I'm going to have to learn there. If there had been anything super deep I would have dug it just to see how deep it really was, even if it had said it was Iron.

That's all for now. I will definitely be doing this more.
TG

 

[Iron Patch]

I have many hours on a GTI, and many doing a park similar in age to what you describe. Your one way tones are most likely a result of the coin being on edge and that is why an explorer can see them better. Even some on an angle a GTI will be strong from once direction, somewhat broken in the other, and probably mimic a pulltab/trash reading on the scteen by the way it jumps. Those Garretts perform ok in fields and places where you want to dig all non iron targets, but it's very tough to pick and choose your spots in a park. A good part of the reason it's hard to work with is the lack of a good modulated audio to give you the small hints something is deep. Again to compare with an Explorer, I can set my gain (target boost) to max and still be able to tell the real deep stuff. If I drop my gain, then it becomes if more obvious, you just have to listen closer because the tone is more subtle. (depending on how how you drop the gain)

As for the surface elimination it's as worthless as the detector talking to you, and in my opinion the imaging too. The all-metal might have it's place somewhere, but it's one of those ideas that looks much better on paper for most sites than it is actually detecting them. Having said all that, I sat here for 5 minutes trying to come up with an idea to possibly use the all-metal, disc. mode, and pinpoint in some type of combination to solve your problem, but I couldn't do it. I think with the technology of the GTI you are forced to become a digging machine and see what happens. I don't suppose you can turn off the target boost on the 2500? I assume not, and is one mistake Garrett made on the GTI because it would be some help. Unfortunately it still wouldn't make those coins on edge, or angles, any better sounding.

PS... I of course posted what I believe about that detector, but certainly don't let that bring you down. My detecting bud used a 1500 for about 6 years (up to 2 years ago) and had success basically everywhere he went. In fact, because we have different styles he usually finds more coins and I have used an explorer for about 9 years and think I know it pretty well.

Wow first let me say I'm shocked to merit a responce from both Tom AND Ironpatch. I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion on stuff like this highly.

Thank you for the thought you put in your post! Both of the coins I referred to were almost on edge. I agree with you about the gain and audio boost settings. I do see how modulated audio could be very helpfull giving a hint when seeking the real deep or on edge coins. The thing is though, without a point of reference I don't know if there are coins deeper then what I am getting out of this park or not. All my hunting buddies also use GTIs. I don't know anyone else that uses a different machine or at what depths they are finding their old coins. It's possible that 7 inches is the deepest layer of coins. I don't automatically assume that a ML would find deeper coins in the dirt I have here, just because someone on here said they found a merc at 10+ inches in their state. BUT this is possible as well and I'm not ruling it out. I'm open minded and I simply want to know the best facts so I can find the best stuff. I'm not really brand loyal. I've just never tried anything else. I do love my 2500 and have done very well. But I can't just go buy an SE to try. Although I would like to. There is not a single machine yet that can find it all while telling you, without fault, what it is.

Again thank you for giving my situation so much though. I've been thinking also and here are some more of my thoughts. A lot of people say that ML machines ie:SE find deeper silver. Are they really trying to say that ML can give a better target ID at depth than GTI? (we are obviously comparing the 2500 to SE now) For instance might the GTI pick up the target just as well as the SE but may not display it as a good target like the SE will. The audio boost could very well be doing it's job just fine while still not showing up as good target or giving a bell tone. If this is the case, which I'm thinking probably is, then if I want to find some of the old, deep, on edge stuff then all I need to do is concentrate on deep/iffy targets and get to digging. Also in which case it wouldn't really matter if I used all-metal mode or not. Although from what I've read it is probably what I will do because it goes deeper. The downside, which you already stated, is that there is very little audio indication of what the target is. Other then I could probably tell if it was a pretty big object. So, I think I will try all-metal mode, forget the display and dig anything that says it is super deep.....say 5+ inches. An old coin could still be as shallow as 5 and read strange if it was on edge.

What do you guys think? This will be a lot of digging and a lot of trash but I'm young AND patient. (two traits that do not often go together, or so I hear.) I will even dig iron signals as it could be masking a good target. Now of course there could be something shallow masking something deep but I think I'll try this first before I start digging absolutely everything. This will be a learning experience for sure. And I'm fine with leaving a good looking target that is not as deep...for now. Who knows how many really old coins I've passed over because they didn't sound good to me. I'll let y'all know how it goes. I should be able to start trying this tomorrow for a few hours at least. If y'all have any other thoughts or tips I would welcome them.

Oh, also. Do y'all have any thoughts on what coil so start on? I am now thinking I may try the 12.5 because in essence I'm only looking for deep signals. It is a very trashy park like I said and it would be hard to get target separation but I could steer clear of the trashest parts and save those for my stock coil and my 5in excelerator....so I will probably end up using all three in different areas. I just really want to prove that I can find a deep, older then what I've been finding, coin to start with.

Well, if you read all this, I thank you simply for that. As always any thoughts are welcome.
TG
[/quote]




The Explorer is deeper, sees coins on edge better, and has much better discrimination at depth. It's probably what sold me the most for the detector because I used to dig many deep rusty nails with the GTI that sounded to good to pass on. The GTI does hit coins at a reasonable depth, but for me who hunts around iron most of the time the Explorer lets me focus my effort on digging more good targets.