Gold, lies, & Video tape , What do you think?

[gollum]

The man to who I refer was a treasure hunter for many years. He recently passed away. Some considered him a con-artist while others considered him quite the authority on several subjects in which he immersed himself. Victorio Peak being one. Some investors had backed his work searching for awhile. He felt that when he had stumbled onto the cavern-- he was set up and arrested by the State of NM. He was charged with 72 counts of various crimes. All of which, but 3, were eventually dropped by the state. It was a long process in the court system but it was real. Conspiracy theories say they had him arrested in hopes to get him away from the cavern long enough so they could finish the discovery. The conspirators were unable to access his claim because his name was the only one registered as a legal mining company. He had explained that to me that he had the rights/permit to what was in the ground as mineral rights but the government had the rights to the land or what was above the ground. He had gone through the permitting process with the government. Due to the legal battles he faced he was told by the judge that he had to give up his claim and permits to the entrance of the claim--which was about 2 years ago. That is about when the pictured bar came into play. There is much more to the story but that was a brief synopsis. Which is why I am curious as how to how to either give credibility to the bar as having historical value or disprove it as real silver but fake story. The XRP confirms it has value as silver and copper. If it is old then there is a story. If it is determined not to be old then the story is just a tall tale.

With the exception of the arrest part, this story seems to have a lot in common with that guy Joe Cummings that wrote "Lure of the Caballos". He went through all kinds of hell when he found Platinum Group Metals in assays from the Caballos.

Mike

 

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[gollum]

these smaller bars don’t look 90 pounds.

No they do not. They may have been in the upper levels with the chests of jewelry and things. The stacks of bars in the lower cavern were all the same size as far as I have heard. Just like all the bars in the Fiege-Berlette Cave were the same size in three stacks. Like all the bars in the Willie-Buster Cave were the same size. I will have to post it when I get home from work, but I have an old B&W of Judge BD Lampros (NM) holding a big shiny gold bar that he got from Noss.

Mike

 

[gollum]

The best bet is when we make ourselves laugh.

Yes, in the early days the Franciscan Marcos de Niza had amicable relations with Natives in Mexico and beyond the Northern Frontier. His activities in 1538-40 were somewhat well chronicled, although there are some holes in that timeline that potentially shed light on the "almacen". But that's another story.
View attachment 2095468

By the way, an old friend who knew Quinn well confirmed that the 82 pound discovery in Arizona was a real deal and that the clues you mentioned were used. But, as you know (and was discussed in prior TNet threads), Quinn revealed to him that the gold belonged to a northern Mexico rancher who moved it into the USA to protect it from the Villalistas during the early 20th century revolution. Who was he? Don't know, but being rich, was presumably a Diaz man and quite likely could have been killed by Pancho's gang. In any event, I guess his Catholic/Maya mojo clues weren't clever enough. Kudos to Quinn.

Welllllllll,

Typically, when I talk about religious treasure in the New World, I am talking about Jesuits. The friendly native thing did apply to all the Orders of the Church though.

Is your friend named Dan? That is who introduced me to Ron. He is a super-cool guy and a wealth of knowledge. If your guy's name is Bill, then run far away with your fingers in your ears. LOL But I spent time with Ron. Made the only existing HD Full Color Scans of most of his old pics. Ron gave me the entire story start to finish, and said NOTHING about any rancher. Everything was found after Ron's Engineer Buddy figured out the math (engineer) to where the small caches were buried around the clue boulders. The truth is they wound up getting a little over $100,000 each, and spend several thousand on a party. Ron said "Go ahead and tell the whole truth. If the government asks, I will tell them I was lying. Prove me wrong." HAHAHA

I also highly doubt the story for a couple of other reasons. First all the bars in this cache were gold. Nothing else. The markings on the bars (2x2 and 2x4 inches), and the Sacred Heart of Christ and a Cross, denote Jesuit Ownership. About a mile or so from this area, there were 1027 silver (no gold) bars recovered. The hole is still there. These bars are what we called the "Martyr Bars". They specifically refer to the Jesuit Missionary Priest Martyred at Mission Caborca (IIRC) in 1695 (also the date on the bars). I have always believed these two caches were related. Too close together and everything Jesuit to be a coincidence.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Welllllllll,

Is your friend named Dan? .... If your guy's name is Bill .... About a mile or so from this area, there were 1027 silver (no gold) bars recovered. The hole is still there. These bars are what we called the "Martyr Bars". They specifically refer to the Jesuit Missionary Priest Martyred at Mission Caborca (IIRC) in 1695 (also the date on the bars). I have always believed these two caches were related. Too close together and everything Jesuit to be a coincidence.

Mike

Nope. Neither a Dan nor a Bill. I will say he was a well-regarded professional in the mining world for many years in Arizona. Believe what you will.

I hope this wasn't the Kenworthy silver recovery. I prefer to rely on the Holabird 2011 (revised 2016) analysis of those ingots. I'm not in the Kenworthy boat. Too many reefs.

 

[autofull]

Nope. Neither a Dan nor a Bill. I will say he was a well-regarded professional in the mining world for many years in Arizona. Believe what you will.

I hope this wasn't the Kenworthy silver recovery. I prefer to rely on the Holabird 2011 (revised 2016) analysis of those ingots. I'm not in the Kenworthy boat. Too many reefs.

there is nothing and has never been any thing to see here, except, perhaps, a few scattered items that the apaches, who i admire may have hidden in the peak from a side entrance. other than that, zip-nada guys. and i shall not argue about my opinion gollum.

 

[markmar]

The best bet is when we make ourselves laugh.

Yes, in the early days the Franciscan Marcos de Niza had amicable relations with Natives in Mexico and beyond the Northern Frontier. His activities in 1538-40 were somewhat well chronicled, although there are some holes in that timeline that potentially shed light on the "almacen". But that's another story.
View attachment 2095468

By the way, an old friend who knew Quinn well confirmed that the 82 pound discovery in Arizona was a real deal and that the clues you mentioned were used. But, as you know (and was discussed in prior TNet threads), Quinn revealed to him that the gold belonged to a northern Mexico rancher who moved it into the USA to protect it from the Villalistas during the early 20th century revolution. Who was he? Don't know, but being rich, was presumably a Diaz man and quite likely could have been killed by Pancho's gang. In any event, I guess his Catholic/Maya mojo clues weren't clever enough. Kudos to Quinn.

Hi Steve, can you post the entire map?

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Steve, can you post the entire map?

No, I was asked not to post the map by the person who sent it to me. It may be available elsewhere - I don't know. It's similar in some respects to the recently discussed "Noss map", but with more and different details. The map is dated Marian year MLCXVI.

 

[BennyV]

No, I was asked not to post the map by the person who sent it to me. It may be available elsewhere - I don't know. It's similar in some respects to the recently discussed "Noss map", but with more and different details. The map is dated Marian year MLCXVI.

1118 is kind of crazy. Is that the year this all went down?

 

[sdcfia]

1118 is kind of crazy. Is that the year this all went down?

The map title, an odd reference to Mary and an incorrect Roman Numeral date, are likely intentional errors, apparently having something to do with the coding on the map. The point is, an almacen is identified in a similar manner as on the "Noss map".

 

[markmar]

No, I was asked not to post the map by the person who sent it to me. It may be available elsewhere - I don't know. It's similar in some respects to the recently discussed "Noss map", but with more and different details. The map is dated Marian year MLCXVI.

It's ok Steve, your description of the map helped enough in regards to build an image of what would represent.
The Mariam is a code for south by east, and the wrong position of the numbers in the year is also a code for degrees.
IMHO, they give a direction south by east from one almacen to another. The numbers of the year to me mean 2,16 degrees. Because the L is in the wrong place, this should read as 1000/50= 20 and the C is to remove a zero from the 20 and to put a coma.
Now, because I know where that turtle is located, I looked at the Noss map overlay in GE in regards to the Jesuit almacen, and I found out the direction from the Jesuit almacen to the almacen from your map, is 2,16 degrees south by east. The location of the almacen in your map is exactly where the arrow points, at its tip. It's a Spanish code so no doubt about this.
The best part of your map, is the almacen which the arrow points, it's not a Jesuit cache but an old Spanish from the same region which contains gold " sticks " ( crude gold bars ). I believe the Jesuits found that Spanish cache by luck, looking around while hiding their stuff. So, your map is a supplementary map made by the Jesuits in regards to " take " that new cache in their custody. Not a very saint method of the Holy Faith.
I forgot to mention your map should be reversed/mirrored, because the Spanish symbol of a number 3 having in its back an E letter.
I post a GE overlay of your map in regards to see how every line follows specific rows of rocks on the ground, another Spanish code for making maps.

 

[CaptainChance]

This is yet another "missing" treasure story with very little physical evidence to support the original storyline, or at least evidence that has "a traceable chain of ownership." Just like Oak Island and many more "lost treasure stories."

 

[markmar]

This is yet another "missing" treasure story with very little physical evidence to support the original storyline, or at least evidence that has "a traceable chain of ownership." Just like Oak Island and many more "lost treasure stories."

Actually this story is told by the few maps for the same region, maps which intersect each other and tell their ownership stories. There are also few accounts of men who witnessed these treasures and few other accounts of men who heard the stories and made an attempt to find the gold.
There are two Spanish maps and three ( with this one ) Jesuit maps for the same region. That region it's not close to Victorio Peak, so I would not post accounts because I will derail the thread.
But I will post an image of overlays which show how are located the Jesuit caches ( red circles ) in regards to the Spanish caches and the crop of the map that sdcfia has posted. The Spanish caches are at the " nose " of the half turtle symbols.

 

[markmar]

Clay Diggins, you can laugh as much you want. Your habit doesn't touch me. Contrary, it shows how much you understand about treasure maps and treasure stories. Instead of laughing , stay back and listen and maybe you will get something from all you will read. Out there, is more history and facts in the background than in the history books and national archives. If you can't get into the treasure hunters spirit, just stop to laugh at everyone who try to explain and share their knowledge.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Thanks for your concern Markmar. I do stay back and listen (read) that's why I'm laughing. Please do continue, I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts.

I see you have joined gollum in deciding what I understand.

Contrary, it shows how much you understand about treasure maps and treasure stories.

Bunch of freekin mind readers you folks are. It's like magic! How do you see what's in my head? And why does it seem so different than what I actually know and experience? It's almost as if you just made that up to insult me.

Do you have any facts* to share about the Noss story (the subject of this thread)? Or is it your intent to turn this into another Clay = bad guy thread?

*Real facts - stuff that is verifiable - with a source that others can study.

 

[markmar]

Thanks for your concern Markmar. I do stay back and listen (read) that's why I'm laughing. Please do continue, I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts.

I see you have joined gollum in deciding what I understand.

Bunch of freekin mind readers you folks are. It's like magic! How do you see what's in my head? And why does it seem so different than what I actually know and experience? It's almost as if you just made that up to insult me.

Do you have any facts* to share about the Noss story (the subject of this thread)? Or is it your intent to turn this into another Clay = bad guy thread?

*Real facts - stuff that is verifiable - with a source that others can study.

Oh , I'm sorry Clay, was not my intent to turn this thread into a " Clay = bad guy " thread. You are a good guy as good is your behavior to the other members of this site. I believe, I feel more offended than you, who are upset of me by trying to find the source of your behavior. And if I wanted to insult you , i would just write how you are a f@*king SOB.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Oh , I'm sorry Clay, was not my intent to turn this thread into a " Clay = bad guy " thread. You are a good guy as good is your behavior to the other members of this site. I believe, I feel more offended than you, who are upset of me by trying to find the source of your behavior. And if I wanted to insult you , i would just write how you are a f@*king SOB.

Brilliant! I expected no less of you Markmar. Once again you have attempted to define my thoughts as "upset" even though I clearly stated I was amused. So I guess Clay = bad guy is still on for you?

You don't have any factual information about Noss (the subject of this thread)? Just speculation and rumor? Kind of like the speculation and rumor you are attempting to spread about my thoughts and knowledge?

 

[markmar]

Brilliant! I expected no less of you Markmar. Once again you have attempted to define my thoughts as "upset" even though I clearly stated I was amused. So I guess Clay = bad guy is still on for you?

You don't have any factual information about Noss (the subject of this thread)? Just speculation and rumor? Kind of like the speculation and rumor you are attempting to spread about my thoughts and knowledge?

I don't have any factual info about Noss. I was interested more in the map sdcfia posted.. Please, continue with your factual info and thoughts.

 

[sdcfia]

Re: "treasure maps" available in the public domain. Assume there is such a thing as a genuine physical object that can be used to locate an unrecovered valuable cache. What do you suppose are the chances that a true copy of such an object finds its way into public media?

 

[markmar]

Re: "treasure maps" available in the public domain. Assume there is such a thing as a genuine physical object that can be used to locate an unrecovered valuable cache. What do you suppose are the chances that a true copy of such an object finds its way into public media?

IMO, the chances are 50-50 to be a genuine treasure map into public media. Even genuine or fake, in a private collection or in public media, the maps are the same worthless, without the knowledge to decrypt them or without the instructions of the map maker in regards to be able to understand them.
The Spanish treasure maps are so tricky and unique, that another Spanish treasure map maker would spend an amount of time in decrypting them, of course if he would have some clues to start from. If in a Spanish treasure map isn't written any clue to direct to a specific region, then is a zero chance to read the map without the instructions or a waybill which is accompanying the map.

 

[BennyV]

Brilliant! I expected no less of you Markmar. Once again you have attempted to define my thoughts as "upset" even though I clearly stated I was amused. So I guess Clay = bad guy is still on for you?

You don't have any factual information about Noss (the subject of this thread)? Just speculation and rumor? Kind of like the speculation and rumor you are attempting to spread about my thoughts and knowledge?

I can’t help but chime in.

If you want to talk just facts then 90% of the stuff posted on this site wouldn’t be up to your extremely high standards.

Let’s not derail the thread. We have had our fair share of armchair detectives around here.