Gulfstream Rarities

[Salvor6]

My neighbor has a large collection of treasure coins (1715 fleet, Atocha, etc.) with a certificate of authenticity from Gulfstream Rarities. They are all mounted in a frame. He recently had them appraised and the appraiser said they are all fakes. This company is still in business and sells their coins on Ebay. How can they get away with this? Could the appraiser be wrong?

 

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[diggummup]

Well someones wrong thats for sure. I didn't find any complaints to the BBB about the company which is located in Deerfield Beach FL. It looks like a guy named Terry Sullivan is the appraiser for the company. Give them a call and see what they say.

Gulfstream Rarities Inc 1717 SW 1st Way #30 Deerfield Beach, FL 33441-6794 954-360-9131.

 

[Salvor6]

Thats funny, a Google search lists their address as an apartment in Delray Beach: http://www.i-rate.org/rating.php?id=62423.
A Corp. search lists no such corporation in Florida. Do you know anything else about them?

 

[divewrecks]

This one sure shows a lot of detail for a typical 1715 fleet 1/2 reale....
http://auction.gatewestcoin.com/cgi-bin/viewItem.cgi?item-number=1030097&t=412230

Should look more like this one he certed....
http://www.souq.com/Coins/Other-Coins/1715-Spanish-Fleet-SILVER-HALF-REALE/6199736/

Also owns name "collectorsource.com"....
http://fic.sunbiz.org/pdf/83310034.pdf

"Welcome to the world of Gulfstream Rarities, your premier source for collectibles. Since 1990 we have dedicated ourselves to creating collectibles programs for large organizations nationwide. Now these items are available to the public. Please take the opportunity to browse through our collectibles and discover a world of adventure through rare coins and currency, old stocks and bonds, golf memorabilia and many unusual stock market related gifts."

Got any pictures of the framed collection?

Stan

 

[diggummup]

Thats funny, a Google search lists their address as an apartment in Delray Beach: http://www.i-rate.org/rating.php?id=62423.
A Corp. search lists no such corporation in Florida. Do you know anything else about them?

I'm sorry my last post was out of date. You are correct, they have not been a "corporation" for many years now it seems. Here is some more info.-http://tinyurl.com/2ftq7kt

 

[diggummup]

I also found this-http://tinyurl.com/274vwvl

It has Terry Sullivan listed as an officer of the Corp. I guess he went out on his own with Gulfstream Rarities Inc., since he is the only one listed in the documents and articles of Incorporation. Now we need to find out why he isn't still in business (bogus authentications?)or if he is, with whom or both.

 

[Salvor6]

Here is the half-reale. He also has an 8 reale Atocha coin with the COA.

 

[divewrecks]

No huge problems from the pictures, but obviously the resolution does not allow close analysis. If someone was going to "fake" an Atocha coin they certainly would use a better master than that. The low grade ones were sold in bulk quantities by the Fishers without certs, so I suspect it is real.

Stan

 

[divewrecks]

Looks like the one you pictured is on Ebay?

Stan

 

[Salvor6]

Yes, my neighbor put his whole collection up for sale on Ebay.

 

[dagfoto]

oops...
being one of the so-called "appraisers" who actually did see these in person ..

you might want to mention the 'questionability' in your ebay listing ...

would hate for you to get the bad hit , when the buyer actually see's them ..

 

[Salvor6]

Like I said these are not mine but belong to my neighbor.

 

[KYBuzzBox]

I bought a couple coins from Mel Fishers Atocha site. These were facsimiles that were minted from the silver bars recovered from the Atocha and normally come in a gold bezel for the kids. However, I have come across several of these "coins" that had been removed from their bezel and were being passed off as real on eBay.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Florida Profit Corporation
GULFSTREAM RARITIES, INC.
Filing Information
Document Number L80259
FEI/EIN Number 650306965
Date Filed 06/14/1990
State FL
Status INACTIVE
Last Event ADMIN DISSOLUTION FOR ANNUAL REPORT
Event Date Filed 09/21/2001
Event Effective Date NONE

Principal Address
1717 S.W. 1ST WAY
#30
DEERFIELD BEACH FL 33441
Changed 05/01/1996
Mailing Address
1717 S.W. 1ST WAY
#30
DEERFIELD BEACH FL 33441
Changed 05/01/1996
Registered Agent Name & Address
SULLIVAN, TERRIE L.
4285 N.W. 2ND AVE.
BOCA RATON FL 33431 US
Officer/Director Detail
Name & Address
Title D
SULLIVAN, TERRIE L.
4385 NW 2ND AVE
BOCA RATON FL
Annual Reports
Report Year Filed Date
1998 03/30/1998
1999 04/16/1999
2000 05/02/2000

 

[History Detective]

I bought a collection of treasure coins off of ebay all with coins in one frame with Gulfstreams Rarities certificates and when I looked at them closley most of the looked fake to me...
I also, had a small coin that dated to the time of Columbus that was again framed with A Gulfsteams certificate and always wondered why it was so thin and had a strange color to it...looking back I strongly believe that it was just piece of tin that was made to look like the real thing...just my two cents worth...

 

[dagfoto]

Hmm.. things come back to haunt you !!!

read above

 

[goldcoastwayne]

I am not surprised...there was a grouping of 3 cobs sold the other day (coincidentally from the same locale under a different name) the seller may well have been duped and suspected they were fake and resold them....I think the coins came from this group...These days I choose my battles and avoid questionable deals...All I can say is...be very careful and request opinions prior to making an offer.

goldcoastwayne

 

[History Detective]

Thats for sure, When ever I see a Gulfstream certificate I can't believe that they are in good standing with the BBB...I run when ever I see one based on my two bad experiences! I have no proof that that were not legit they just didn't "look right".

 

[realeswatcher]

Re: Gulfstream Rarities - framed collections/Atocha pieces

I've read this thread before and since it has started up again, thought I'd add my observations on/experience with these Gulfstream Rarities collections and "Atocha" pieces.

Firstly, everything you see from this (seemingly defunct) outfit is framed. Sometimes they have multiple (usually 5) coins in one huge frame... sometimes it was just a single coin in frame or as the initial poster showed, a collection of individually-framed coins. Almost all of the framed collections or singles I've seen tend to be comprised of the following wrecks:

Atocha - 4R or 8R pieces *** see below
Vliegenthart - Mexico cob 4R or 8R
Hollandia - ducaton
1715 Fleet - usually a "half real"
Bredenhof - duit (they call it "doit")
Admiral Gardner - East India Co. 10 cash copper

I see two lots from Gulfstream on eBay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280554436187
....... an "Atocha 8 reales"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290470301395
....... collection of 4 individually-framed coins, incl. an Atocha 4R and a "Hollandia ducaton" which has the same appearance as the one I got from them.

Regarding Gulfstream's Atocha pieces... These have a "Treasure Salvors" COA with them, whereas the coins from other wrecks seem to only have Gulfstream's own COAs. This sheet is almost like the normal Fisher certs, BUT differs slightly. The easy way to spot one of these is the semi-cursive looking "NUESTRA SENORA DE ATOCHA", which is clearly distinct from the block print version on the normal Fisher sheets.

The other odd thing about these "Atocha" pieces is that (most of the ones I've seen) have Fisher-like cert numbers given to them... BUT these don't match up with what the Fisher database site shows!! Yes, somewhat fishy... Now, one would think that if Gulfstream was issuing certs with Treasure Salvors' name on them, there would have to have been some sort of arrangement between the companies. This knowledge, I am not privy too...

Regarding the actual "Atocha" coins... Haven't had one in hand, but from the ones I've looked at online, I have seen a few which I find slightly questionable... though nothing where you'd say without a doubt "that's fake" or "that can't be Atocha".

Now, here is my feedback on the 5-coin set I picked up on the cheap a while back (see attached photo). Consisted of:

-- "Hollandia" ducaton
-- "Vliegenthart" cob
-- 1715 Fleet half real
-- Bredenhof duit (doit)
-- Admiral Gardner East India coin

General note: I bought the lot to take it apart... I don't do framed. The problem here was that A) The certs are not fastened in place, they are glued right to the cardstock and B) (more infuriating) The coins themselves were glued on with the stickiest substance known to man. Took an hour to acetone it all off the coins, and I ended up with sloppily cut-out COAs. If you are looking at one of these sets and were thinking you'd remove it from the frame - don't bother, not worth it!

Regarding the coins... The two cheapies in the set (Admiral Gardner, Bredenhof duit) seem perfectly correct & legit. The 1715 Fleet piece seems legit also... however it isn't a half-real, but actually a low-grade 1R fragment. Eh, close enough I guess. I've seen this error before on some of the "official" Fisher Cobb Coin Co. holders for small pieces.

The two $$ coins:

Hollandia ducaton - Big zonk here!! Fairly certain it's fake. I'm really not terribly familiar with ducatons (I know the lion "dog" dollar a bit)... but way underweight (even for salvaged), oddly porous, looks/feels/clinks wrong.

Vliegenthart... confusing. Instead of a normal Mexican cob 4R or 8R (which was the most of this ship's cargo, along with some ducatons)... I got a sea-salvaged... Guatemala pillar-type cob 4 reales??!! Have NEVER seen one of these from the Vliegenthart. It's definitely an authentic sea-salvaged piece, but I highly doubt it's from this wreck.

So, to sum up... clearly mixed results here.

 

[CaptainMyCaptain]

I realize this thread is OLD. But, as a Spanish Colonial Numismatist, who takes it very VERY seriously, I can tell you, that, Gulf Stream Rarities 100% produced counterfeits under their (I should say HE, Terry Sullivan) own certificates but also, he faked hundreds of framed 1715 Fleet cobs, using fake Cobb Coin Company COAS, embossed, with his OWN seal! These fake coas, he would emboss just lightly enough, so that it was hard to read the words GULF STREAM RARITIES INC. You have to take a flash light to it, to see that the embossing is fake. But, also the font and lettering on these fake certs, is missing serifs and spotty, as he just photocopied a rea COA. If you see a cob in a frame, that you can not take out and inspect, do NOT buy it. If you want a framed coin, believe me when I tell you, hobby lobby can do it a hundred times nicer, for a lot cheaper - especially with an existing frame.
Anyway.
What the guy does, is he takes a coin, and makes a cast copy of it, then, he clips and alters the shapes of the coins so that if you saw two of the same coins side by side, in their frames, they would appear different at a glance. However, the host strike is always the same. These things have been fooling collectors, as well as large auction firms for decades - which some selling for very good money. And they pop up at least once a month on Ebay. Almost always from a seller in Florida, which means, they likely are still being produced, or the majority of them reside there in private collections by people who got suckered by this wank in the past never knowing it - though, some of them do, and have tried to pass them off as genuine, knowing full well they are counterfeits. I have collected a good number of these fakes, but I am always looking for more photos of them because there is no telling just how many he made. IF you have photos of a GSR, or suspect framed CCC fake, PLEASE send photos to me, ASAP as I am working hard on a new booklet of FAKE COBS, as well as making a case against this scum bag.
Moving on.
Like the GSR framed fakes, the CCC counterfeits also are framed, with the same light grey (sometimes green) matting, and paper dust cover on the back. This guy, was clever! Another example of his counterfeiting MO, was not only to clip the cast coins, but he put them with different COAS, or with his counterfeit Cobb Coin Company COAs, he would put the same cast clones in, for example two different frames, one with clipping to change its shape, glued upside down on a fake COA with a serial number, the other, unclipped, glued in correctly, without a serial number. He would also mix them in with cheap shipwreck coins in large frames with a mix of wrecks. Of the mixed wreck large frames, I noted that the 1715 Fleet is always fake, the Dutch Riders are fakes, and the rest were cheap coins like VOC coins, Admiral Gardner and an extremely low grade Atocha coin. His fakes are silver, a few have been pewter or a white metal. The silver being of varying alloy. Mostly Sterling Silver - I have access to XRF testing, and I use it. As mentioned, I take this stuff seriously, especially authentication of these coins, because there are so many fakes, and so many sharks who will lie threw their teeth about a coins provenance to sell it. It is a massive turn off, and if I didn't love these coins so much, I would have walked away from this corner of numismatics decades ago. To put it plain and simple, you absolutely have to know your coins.
Anyway,
Sullivan owned a framing business, hence the frames. But, that paper dust cover, which costs 1$ to have done, nobody ever wanted to tear off to investigate the coins in fear of ruining the frames. Strange, isn't it we worry more about a piece of paper backing, than the 150+ $ we may be losing on the fake coin.....

Anyway. I am just here to update, and say that YES these are known fakes, this company and its counterparts are NOT to be trusted because its own, Terry Sullivan, is a counterfeiter and conman. So, once again, IF you have any photos of suspected fakes, or can provide any photos of framed GSR cobs, or shipwreck coins, please share them, or contact me.
Thanks
Collect Smart, and Caveat Emptor!
R

Here are just a few of his counterfeits.