Harbor Freight sells a towable backhoe for only $3499

[firebird]

What do you guys think? Can it be used to make digging up paydirt easier?



https://www.harborfreight.com/power...ckhoe/backhoe/9-hp-towable-backhoe-62365.html

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Jim in Idaho]

Only if you have a claim and a Plan of Operation in effect. Motorized equipment, on public lands, is a no-no.
Jim

 

[Clay Diggins]

Only if you have a claim and a Plan of Operation in effect. Motorized equipment, on public lands, is a no-no.
Jim

When did that happen Jim? I don't know of any such law or regulation.

I work in the industry and I know of several operations running motorized equipment on their claims with no plan of operation and the blessing of the BLM.

A POO is not required if there is no significant disturbance of surface resources. There are public lands where there are no surface resources to protect. There are ways of mining with motorized equipment that don't significantly disturb surface resources.

Best practices and good planning when dealing with surface resources are the standards. The goal of the law is to avoid unnecessary significant disturbance of surface resources - not to regulate motorized equipment use or mining methods.

Heavy Pans

 

[N-Lionberger]

Seeing how the machine broke down in the video wrangling a little stump I doubt it will last long in a placer diggings.

 

[hollARDog]

🤘

 

[CoinFetcher]

You get what u pay for. Harbor freight stuff if junk. If junk will do the job, then great.

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Clay, I wasn't aware of that! Fool that I am I simply assumed you couldn't use motorized equipment because they cause significant disruption of the ground. Are you saying I can use things like backhoes on public lands? I'd be amazed if the BLM in Idaho would OK that, but maybe I'm wrong. I know of some guys that used a hand-held diamond saw in Wyoming to saw through a 6" slab of rock, and got fined. You had to take a good look to even see what they did.
Jim

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay, I wasn't aware of that! Fool that I am I simply assumed you couldn't use motorized equipment because they cause significant disruption of the ground. Are you saying I can use things like backhoes on public lands? I'd be amazed if the BLM in Idaho would OK that, but maybe I'm wrong. I know of some guys that used a hand-held diamond saw in Wyoming to saw through a 6" slab of rock, and got fined. You had to take a good look to even see what they did.
Jim

Jim the standard is not "significant disruption of the ground" the agency standard is "significant disturbance of surface resources". Words really do matter.

The ground, as you call it, is where the minerals the claimant owns are found. Locatable minerals are subsurface resources owned by the claimant, not the federal government. You have every right to dig, disturb and remove the minerals even if the subsurface disturbance is significant because minerals are not surface resources. The surface resources are not owned by the claimant, they are owned by the federal government (on claims located since 1955).

Surface resources are those things the federal government can sell or are required by law to protect. Things like timber, salable minerals, free flowing streams and endangered plants or animals. This is where the federal agencies have power over the specific methods of mining used in a specific location. They only have that power IF the mining could cause significant disturbance of surface resources. If your mining will not significantly disturb surface resources the BLM has no choice but to allow your mining without a Plan of Operation.

By law the federal surface management agencies have a duty to protect the surface resources from "unnecessary or undue degradation". If the mining causes significant surface disturbance but the disturbance is necessary and not undue by industry standards the mining can proceed despite the significant surface disturbance.

In mining unnecessary and undue degradation is caused by not following industry "Best Practices" or from poor planning. The unnecessary and undue degradation standard is only applied to the surface resources. The subsurface minerals and your methods of extracting them are only governed by federal and state mine worker safety standards - not the BLM or Forest Service.

I just looked and there are three operations using backhoes on their mining claims on BLM managed lands within an hour drive of me. Those miners are all digging under a notice to the BLM. With the notice system the miner notifies the BLM of their intent to dig their minerals and their plan to meet the Best Mining Practices standards. The BLM has 15 days to request more details, suggest changes, request a plan or allow the digging. If the BLM doesn't reply in 15 days the miner can proceed without further delay. In either case no permit is needed or issued. The Notice is a case action on your mining claim case file - sometimes a small reclamation bond is requested which will also be noted on your case file. This system has been in place since 1980. The law and regulations are the same for federal lands no matter which state you are mining in.

As far as someone using a diamond saw on a rock on public lands - that's illegal without a permit. Rocks are not locatable minerals. If you want to cut and remove part of a rock from the public lands that would require a permit or a lease the same as sand and gravel, acorns, mushrooms or taking or harvesting any other surface resource. Often these permits are given for free or very little money. While I have no personal objection to what they did I'm not surprised they got a ticket.

I hope that clears things up Jim. It was a good question. I think it's important for miners and prospectors to understand the distinctions between their rights and responsibilities and those of the surface management agencies.

Heavy Pans

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Clay, I'm still confused. Why is damaging a rock any different than digging up the ground? Seems to be splitting hairs. Maybe I'm just stupid...LOL
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Also, they weren't removing the rock they cut. They were moving a portion of it out of their way, to get at the gold beneath, which turned out to be 6oz.
Jim

 

[desertgolddigger]

I wasn't aware that mechanical aids like graders, backhoes, and other large motorized equipment was allowed om BLM lands without jumping through a multitude of hoops. I know that commercial outfits who get all the permits, and do all the environmental studies, still have to restore the land to its previous condition before ending operations. It's kind of like requiring small time prospectors having to fill in their holes when done. At least they're supposed to, but few do. If BLM and Park Rangers ever had enough people to enforce the rules, a lot of claims would be shut down for non-compliance.

I agree, that backhoe looks fragile. The darn thing cost $1500 more than my first brand new car.

 

[firebird]

Also, they weren't removing the rock they cut. They were moving a portion of it out of their way, to get at the gold beneath, which turned out to be 6oz.
Jim

How does that happen, how'd 6oz end up underneath a big rock?!

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay, I'm still confused. Why is damaging a rock any different than digging up the ground? Seems to be splitting hairs. Maybe I'm just stupid...LOL
Jim

I don't think you are stupid Jim, far from it.

I do think you are mixing apples and oranges. My post was in response to your statement that "Only if you have a claim and a Plan of Operation in effect. Motorized equipment, on public lands, is a no-no."

What that has to do with someone damaging public property is beyond me. It wouldn't matter if they were using spray paint or a saw, the rock wasn't theirs to deface.

Sawed up rocks aside I tried to show you why your idea that motorized equipment, on public lands, is a no-no doesn't reflect reality. Mining claim owners do have a right to use motorized equipment on their claims without a plan of operations. I hope I cleared that up for you?

Heavy Pans

​

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Yes, I get that. And, I believe you. My post was made in a feeble attempt to prevent a fellow member from using a mechanized tool in prospecting, as he suggested initially.
I hope we haven't drifted off into a discussion of the technical aspects of the law vs the actual reality of what transpires out there. I'm certain a person can't just grab a backhoe, and start wandering around the public lands digging holes. And that is the point I was trying to make.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

How does that happen, how'd 6oz end up underneath a big rock?!

It was in a seasonal wash below an old, well-known gold area. Still more there, too.The rock was a a very large, thin slab, that was loose.
Jim

 

[Clay Diggins]

I see a lot of people don't realize you have a right to mine your claim. I'm not making this stuff up, I do this for a living. No hoops or anything else if you understand best practices. Here's the BLM regulation on giving them a notice. See how there is no requirement for them to reply unless they have a question?

"§ 3809.21 When do I have to submit a notice?
(a) You must submit a complete notice of your operations 15 calendar days before you commence exploration causing surface disturbance of 5 acres or less of public lands on which reclamation has not been completed. See § 3809.301 for information on what you must include in your notice.
(b) You must not segment a project area by filing a series of notices for the purpose of avoiding filing a plan of operations. See §§ 3809.300 through 3809.336 for regulations applicable to notice-level operations.

§ 3809.311 What action does BLM take when it receives my notice?
(a) Upon receipt of your notice, BLM will review it within 15 calendar days to see if it is complete under § 3809.301.
(b) If your notice is incomplete, BLM will inform you in writing of the additional information you must submit. BLM may also take the actions described in § 3809.313.
(c) BLM will review your additional information within 15 calendar days to ensure it is complete. BLM will repeat this process until your notice is complete, or until we determine that you may not conduct operations because of your inability to prevent unnecessary or undue degradation."

If you prepared your notice well you will be mining within the month. Backhoe and all. No hoops. No permits required.

Here's a typical local scenario here in the Arizona desert for a notice level operation:

A small miner friend wanted to use a backhoe on his 5 claims. He wrote a notice saying he would dig a 12 x 12 foot hole 10 foot deep. After digging the hole and processing the material the hole would be filled back in and contoured. Then the next hole would be dug and the whole process repeated over all 5 claims.

Since the whole mining cycle only involved one hole at a time he posted a reclamation bond based on what it would cost to hire a local company to go to the site and fill and contour a single hole back in if he failed to do so. End result - 5 claims dug with a backhoe on a single $2,700 bond. BLM didn't have any questions about his notice and he was mining before the month was out. Once he finished and filled in the last hole he got his $2,700 bond money back. The whole notice process cost him $15 filing fee and about two days of his time to take some measurements and pictures on the claims and write the notice.

Heavy Pans

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Yes, I get that. And, I believe you. My post was made in a feeble attempt to prevent a fellow member from using a mechanized tool in prospecting, as he suggested initially.
I hope we haven't drifted off into a discussion of the technical aspects of the law vs the reality of what transpires in our prospecting and mining. The guys with the rock saw were on their claim. So they were going after gold that was there. So are you saying that had they used a backhoe to move that rock, it would have been Ok? Or, would it be legal to break up the rock with a sledgehammer? I'm sure I'm not the only person here who is a bit confused. You are the recognized expert on mining law on this forum. Please make this a bit more clear, for me, or anyone else interested.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

I see a lot of people don't realize you have a right to mine your claim. I'm not making this stuff up, I do this for a living. No hoops or anything else if you understand best practices. Here's the BLM regulation on giving them a notice. See how there is no requirement for them to reply unless they have a question?

"§ 3809.21 When do I have to submit a notice?
(a) You must submit a complete notice of your operations 15 calendar days before you commence exploration causing surface disturbance of 5 acres or less of public lands on which reclamation has not been completed. See § 3809.301 for information on what you must include in your notice.
(b) You must not segment a project area by filing a series of notices for the purpose of avoiding filing a plan of operations. See §§ 3809.300 through 3809.336 for regulations applicable to notice-level operations.

§ 3809.311 What action does BLM take when it receives my notice?
(a) Upon receipt of your notice, BLM will review it within 15 calendar days to see if it is complete under § 3809.301.
(b) If your notice is incomplete, BLM will inform you in writing of the additional information you must submit. BLM may also take the actions described in § 3809.313.
(c) BLM will review your additional information within 15 calendar days to ensure it is complete. BLM will repeat this process until your notice is complete, or until we determine that you may not conduct operations because of your inability to prevent unnecessary or undue degradation."

If you prepared your notice well you will be mining within the month. Backhoe and all. No hoops. No permits required.

Here's a typical local scenario here in the Arizona desert for a notice level operation:

A small miner friend wanted to use a backhoe on his 5 claims. He wrote a notice saying he would dig a 12 x 12 foot hole 10 foot deep. After digging the hole and processing the material the hole would be filled back in and contoured. Then the next hole would be dug and the whole process repeated over all 5 claims.

Since the whole mining cycle only involved one hole at a time he posted a reclamation bond based on what it would cost to hire a local company to go to the site and fill and contour a single hole back in if he failed to do so. End result - 5 claims dug with a backhoe on a single $2,700 bond. BLM didn't have any questions about his notice and he was mining before the month was out. Once he finished and filled in the last hole he got his $2,700 bond money back. The whole notice process cost him $15 filing fee and about two days of his time to take some measurements and pictures on the claims and write the notice.

Heavy Pans

I now see where I got confused. I was confusing "giving notice" with a POO.
Thanks!
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

ya know....I also noticed in the reg that "giving notice" was for exploration, not mining. There is a difference. As you previously mentioned, words do matter. I guess a person could call whatever they're doing, exploration, and get away with it...maybe.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Another "tidbit" for you guys following this. For 5 claims, as stated by Clay, that would be 30, 250 12'x12'x 10 deep holes. If you never got your $2700 bond back, your cost would be less than 9c/hole. Pretty cheap. Those 30,250 holes would be 1.6 million cubic yards of material, packed. Or about 2 million loose yards of dirt and rocks. Better start young...LOL
Jim