Help requested (Spain)

[Blak bart]

I bet D. Horan would give him a run for the treasure. Just saying !! There are others out there involved in maritime law that are just as qualified in treasure related matters. If your talking about the Jupiter inlet wreck and you found bars khayboub, then I hope you found them between high and low tide mark. Otherwise I dont think capt. Dom will be pleased. If you did find them on the beach, then wow !! Congrats. Incredible ! There are at least a few San Miguels out there sooooo Any way good luck !!!

 

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[enrada]

Khayboub
The majority of people on this site are on your side. For the one or two who don't want to identify themselves and try to steer you to a particular lawyer or country, BE CAREFUL, GIVE THEM NO DETAILS.
Give out no details until you can prove where their interests lie or find out what the history of a person is. Don't be afraid to ask Sads 669 for info about individuals.

My philosophy when dealing with people in this industry that I don't know, "assume they are telling you a lie unless you can prove that it is correct". Works for me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and question if any gold-laden shipwreck was found. Because notice the question is all phrased in the hypothetical. Ie.: "if I found such & such, what do I do ?" Yet , as is so often seen: People will phrase it in the past tense "found". For if they believe they've narrowed it down to a certain spot on the ocean floor via research.

This psychology is seen again and again when you look back over T'net posts: Someone comes on talking about a "treasure" they've "found" (past tense). And now they have questions about legal status, or a detector that goes 6 meters deep, or where to smelt 100 lbs of gold, etc.... And when you go to scrutinize the person, ... well .... it turns out they haven't actually "found" anything yet. But they've got it narrowed down to the bottom of a certain lake. Or a certain cave. Or a certain meadow. Now it's merely a matter of heavy equipment, or legal preparation, etc.... Or they heard it at the campfire story where their buddy tells them about a cave with skeletons, chests, cannon-balls, etc.... (but ... of course, if you scrutinize that buddy, it turns out it's something he too heard from another buddy). Or their coat-hanger pointed a certain direction, etc....

But in their mind's eyes they've already "found" it. Even though they haven't seen a single item. Because of govt. constraints, or need of heavy equipment or investors, etc.... And they will always phrase it in the 100% certain past tense "found".

I may be wrong, but .... just sayin' .... this is what seems to happen to most all fabulous treasures we read of on T'net. And when you go to ask them for the show & tell, well .... they can't show you. Because they fear the IRS, claim-jumpers, thieves, etc....

We shall see. Eh ?

 

[FISHEYE]

Jim Goold has his own treasure boat and crew so it would be best to just forget about talking to him.

 

[Khayboub]

TOM_IN_CA, I'm under no obligation to answer all your questions, I came here seeking help and advice and that's what this forum is all about. Do I have to describe to you the head on the silver spoon and tell you the hand engraved numbers on the billions so your majesty can give me the blessing and validate my story?

You are so dismissive to the point that you forgot that I came here looking for advice not to get interrogated by the shipwreck patrol. You are right, I'm just a fantasist and I ain't got nothing to proof so stop asking me questions Mr hypothetical.

 

[seekerGH]

Jim Goold has his own treasure boat and crew so it would be best to just forget about talking to him.

Legal rep and recovery team, that doesnt sound like a bad combination.

Kb was looking for archeological recovery, not treasure hunting...

From CB website: https://www.cov.com/en/professionals/g/james-goold

• Nautical archaeology and oceanographic survey projects, including; Battle of the Egadi Islands (241 B.C.) Survey, Sicily, Italy; Battle of Trafalgar (1804) Survey, Cadiz, Spain; Albania and Illyria Regional Classical Era Coastal Survey, Saranda, Albania; Ulu Burun Shipwreck (1300 B.C.) Excavation, Kas, Turkey; Survey of Approaches to Grand Harbor for Battle of Malta (1942) casualties; Valletta, Malta; Molasses Reef Wreck (1520 A.D. approx.), Providenciales, Turks and Caicos Islands; HMS Thunderbolt (1944), Sicily, Italy; Cacciatorpediniere Italiano Ardente (1943), Sicily, Italy; Surveys of Roman, Greek and Byzantine Vessels, Cesme and Marmaris, Turkey; Henrietta Marie (1723), Key West, Florida; and Tangier Harbor Approaches Survey, Tangier, Morocco.

and RPM: https://rpmnautical.org/

 

[enrada]

There would be only one reason why I would consult with James Goold and I wouldn't disclose any details just generic information. It would be so that when you got in litigation with Spain, that JG would have a conflict of interest and not be able to represent Spain.
Take a look at his bio and that will tell you on whose side he would be on, not only Spain's but the Archaeological publish or perish mob as well.
Khayboub you get the picture?

 

[Khayboub]

Enrada, I got the picture and I agree with your opinion, it doesn't harm to share opinions and give advice irrelevant to whether a story is genuine or made up rather than being obsessed about the conspiracy theories.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Hi everyone and hats off to you guys for your dedication and hard work, thanks to you, newbies like me are easily enlightened and become a part of the furniture.

Say I know where the San Miguel is, given the fact that I hold a proper permission for metal detecting and the area where the ship is found is not banned from treasure hunting, you imagined that? now, I decided to claim the thing and go down the legal path, where such claims are made? should I approach the American embassy in Spain or the Spanish exterior ministry? do I require a lawyer or bring my own one? Do I take with me a bar or two or just a picture will do? What sort of documents and papers are involved and how long the damn process take? Is it negotiable? Do I have a say in the terms and conditions before the claim? Are these people trustworthy?

Can someone please shed some lights on these questions. Thanks.

1)....You don't know where the San Miguel is.... You know where a wrecked and abandoned unidentified sailing vessel is!
2) Hire an experienced admiralty, maritime attorney!
3)Wait till you get credible legal advice. Don't remove anything.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Tom,
As I read the OP I read him using it as tongue in cheek for a hypothetical scenario so later nobody can come back at him.
Or maybe he is just fishing for info for when he does hit it big.

 

[Khayboub]

Au_dreamers, you must be a mind reader! You got it bang on.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

1)....You don't know where the San Miguel is.... You know where a wrecked and abandoned unidentified sailing vessel is! ....

Tom,
As I read the OP I read him using it as tongue in cheek for a hypothetical scenario so later nobody can come back at him.
Or maybe he is just fishing for info for when he does [future tense]hit it big.

Au_dreamers, you must be a mind reader! You got it bang on.

Ahhh, so we're cleared up now. Ok.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Are these people trustworthy?

You have gotten some good advice, but I will weigh in on this question...

The answer is a BIG, FAT, EMPHATIC NO.

In regards the State of Florida, simply read the recent threads regarding the Cape Canaveral scatter field finds made by GME.

The deviousness does not stop with Florida either...in 2013, Intersal, the company that found the ship believed to be Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge, negotiated a deal with the state of North Carolina to relinquish salvage rights in return for exclusive rights to copyrighted images and videos of the wreck. Then, in 2015, the North Carolina legislature passed a law declaring that all images of the wreck automatically belonged to the State of North Carolina and thus were public records not subject to copyright protection !!!!! Amazing, but true !!!!!

Remember, almost without exception, State governments and their lawyers will do whatever the unelected and unaccountable state archaeologists tell them to do...even if that is in conflict with state law.

This is not paranoia. It is fact.

Remember, just because a vessel is Spanish, does NOT mean it belongs to Spain.

And in most cases it is extremely difficult to prove even the nationality of a wreck, much less its exact identity.

 

[seekerGH]

There would be only one reason why I would consult with James Goold and I wouldn't disclose any details just generic information. It would be so that when you got in litigation with Spain, that JG would have a conflict of interest and not be able to represent Spain.

Sorry, as entertaining as that may appear, that would not qualify as a conflict. One would have to be a client for there to be a conflict.

In reality, you can speak with Goold and even hire him as the mediator. I am sure you are aware, Spain has denied it has abandoned its shipwrecks and denied recovery.

You stated you wanted a proper archeological recovery. Playing outhouse lawyer games that it is unidentified, when all of the facts are there, serves no ones interest, reduces the nature of the recovery in every way, and as we have seen in several cases, it does not work.

As we have seen, the State of Florida, US Federal government, Spain, Peru/ et al, decendents of the crew/passengers, and a host of others will make claims. I am sure you also are aware, that Goold is representing Spain in its claims against the State of Florida, for not upholding the provisions under the Atocha lawsuit, and adminstration of the archaeological provisions set forth for the wrecks in its waters.

From my perspective, IF you decide to negotiate and team with Spain, (there are teams all over that do this), you will have the greates chance of sucess. Put together a proper plan, with a proper team, and they will work with you. Play games, and they will slap you down hard and just take it away, giving you $300 for the buckets.

Call is yours to make.

 

[ecmjamsit]

I have found the pirate philosophy to be the most successful. Unless you can get yourself elected to high office. Then it still works, you just fly another flag. Feel free to interpret this statement anyway you want. It is based on real life experience.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Playing outhouse lawyer games that it is unidentified, when all of the facts are there, serves no ones interest, reduces the nature of the recovery in every way, and as we have seen in several cases, it does not work.

Calling it unidentified isn't playing a game it is smart business practice.
I believe it has worked for multitudes of wrecks as virtually all claims are initially filed this way. Especially if one is jumping through the hoops the bureaucracy is making them jump through.

How do you identify a wreck's name when you file for an exploration permit?
How do you identify a wreck's name when you file for a dig and identify?
How do you identify a wreck's name when you file for a recovery permit when you were only allowed to dig and identify 10 targets?

For any 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th century tractor trailer hauling commercial goods across the seas to be identified doesn't make much sense unless you plan on buying property near a cruise ship port and open a museum and that's after you have already established yourself as a public figure seeking the wreckage of a ship, that in part you made more famous than it ever would have been throughout history because of your efforts to find and recover the ship's material!

I haven't read all of them but I have seen plenty and the common language of filing is within close relationship of an unidentified, abandoned, wrecked sailing vessel.


Here's a simple litmus test, put this in your search engine, "unidentified, abandoned, wrecked sailing vessel".

 

[aquanut]

Here's a simple litmus test, put this in your search engine, "unidentified, abandoned, wrecked sailing vessel".

I did Chris and amazingly it came up with no results. Imagine that!

 

[Honest Samuel]

Hire a great lawyer who deals with shipwrecks treasures. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[grossmusic]

As several of you know, I'm a writer, not a salvor (yet).

All the belittling has been uncalled for & I love the classy way our regulars have taken it to task. Advice is best given (& taken) without foredrawn conclusions & judgments - & when ASKED. Not sure that advice was ever really asked in the OP. Just info.

As for the recommendation you requested in your followup, Khayboub, pm me if you're still looking.

Personally, I am interested in every thread that poses a hypothetical as I want to learn how things work too. To ask BEFORE finding is just smart. Know the risks. Know the options. Be informed.

So, if anyone has further information on the bureaucrazy after making a find, post please.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... after making a find,....

hmmmm