Help with ammo identification - New guy

[stranger]

Hi all,

I've been detecting for 2 weeks or so and found this forum. Great site and you guys have found some awesome items.

Here is a pic of some of the things i've found so far on property owned by my family for over a century in Illinois. The brass shotgun shell says "Winchester No. 10"...it was found on an old homesite that has been gone for over 75 years...any idea on age? Supposedly, on one area of our property, there was a military range and I found the shell casings and the lead bullets there. Were the bullets muzzeloader? Any information as to possible age, etc would be greatly appreciated. One of the shell casings says "F" "89" and "12". Thanks for your help, very interesting forum.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=DigEmAll
[Of course they were fired from three different rifles....
the 30-40, 45-70, and 38-55 were three different calibers! LOL

*******
Sheesh yer dog has fleas digem, hehe there is no 38 55 anymore, only the Springield 45 70 & the 30 40 Krag.
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(I too know how this is
********
If you didn't, the gov;t should get it's money back digem heheheh.

Same for YOU DOC!!!

Tropical Tramp

 

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[DigEmAll]

History point for you guys.


The 1873 SPRINGFIELD CAVALRY CARBINE (trapdoor model) may have been partially to blame for the demise of one General Custer.

The MAJORITY of the recovered rifles from the battlefield were found to have casings in them. For many years it was just taken for granted that the soldier died fighting, and had gotten off one last, dying round.

About 1999, the father of a good friend of mine (A professional history researcher) who was helping with the cataloging of some of the items recovered in 1994 and being stored in a military history museum warehouse noted this fact as well. Having a couple of vintage trapdoor models himself, he knew the propensity for the casings to seize and the extractor to rip the rim off the casing. As he was examining the battlefield relics, he also noted that most with casings inside them had the rims ripped off. He also noted that almost EVERY rifle had scratch marks in the chamber area, indicative of having the brass dug out with a knife or something similar.

This would have DRASTICALLY reduced the rate of fire that the soldiers could put downrange. This would also have put the soldier in a very vulnerable position - almost totally defenceless.

Proven theory? No.

Intriguing? Very.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Absoloutley correct "Digemout",. this is why I mentioned the rim eveloution on the base of the case in the picture.

However, the main reason for extraction problems was inferior brass drawing/construction, too weak..

Tropical Tramp

 

[stranger]

Ok, I'll take a guess as to how you know they were fired from 3 different rifles....firing pin marks on primers?

 

[DigEmAll]

Absoloutley correct "Digemout",. this is why I mentioned the rim eveloution on the base of the case in the picture.

However, the main reason for extraction problems was inferior brass drawing/construction, too weak..

Tropical Tramp

Inferior brass may have had something to do with it, but the main reason was that the Army was really pushing for a more accurate rifle. With the 73's, Springfield Armory tightend up all the tollerances and especially in the chamber area to help with accuracy. When fired ANY brass expands, but in the tight chambers of the 73's it was too much and would seize the casing inside the chamber. Good brass, bad brass, I don't think it would matter. Bad brass may have made the problem much worse however!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=stranger ]
Ok, I'll take a guess as to how you know they were fired from 3 different rifles....firing pin marks on primers?
*******
HI Strangr you have earned "(*****)" correct.

Tropical Tramp



[/quote]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=DigEmAll ]
]
However, the main reason for extraction problems was inferior brass drawing/construction, too weak..

Inferior brass may have had something to do with it, but the main reason was that the Army was really pushing for a more accurate rifle.
*******************
True, but by reducing the diameter of the projectile while keeping the same weight improved the ballistic co-efficient greatly for long range superiority.
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Good brass, bad brass, I don't think it would matter. Bad brass may have made the problem much worse however!
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That it did, the ballon head style of the orig brass did not have enough spring back, so it stayed in tight contact with the chamber walls causing enough excess friction leading to the the extractor pulling through the thinner rim, especially if the chamber was dirty or corroded. The solid head, external primed cases overcame this.
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Tropical Tramp

 

[DigEmAll]

"True, but by reducing the diameter of the projectile while keeping the same weight improved the ballistic co-efficient greatly for long range superiority."


But they didn't reduce the diameter, it was still .450, they reduced the length of the projectile to accomplish this. This however did not help with the accuracy, it helped give it greater range. Accuracy in these days was based solely on the firearm. Ammo didn't come into the accuracy equation intentionally for some years to come.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[DigEmAll
"True, but by reducing the diameter of the projectile while keeping the same weight improved the ballistic co-efficient greatly for long range superiority."

But they didn't reduce the diameter, it was still .450,
*******
They went from 50 70 to 45 70 Digemout. Later fom the 405, 450 t0 the 500 gr projectile. cases.
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they reduced the length of the projectile to accomplish this. This however did not help with the accuracy, it helped give it greater range. Accuracy in these days was based solely on the firearm. Ammo didn't come into the accuracy equation intentionally for some years to come.
************
hmmmm

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

diving doc ]
Are you guys talking about the bullet diameter or the diameter of the rifle barrel??
Doc
************
always the projectile dia, since you can fire a .22 with an adapter out of a .50 barrel. Normally they are closely matched however.

Tropical Tramp

 

[DigEmAll]

Sorry Senor, I thought you were refering solely to the 45-70.

 

[Monty]

I'm an amateur gun collector and I bought a .45-70 built on an old SMLE (smelly) rifle action last year. It's a hoot to shoot ( damn, I'm a poet too) . I handload 450 gr. hard cast lead flat nose bullets at about 2100 fps for it. I like the 450 grainers because they get a little better velocity than the 500s and shoot a little flatter with less recoil. I bought the gun to take hog hunting but haven't got around to going yet. A little known fact is that the old original black powder .45/70 loaded with smokeless powder in a modern firearm is only about 300 fps slower than a .458 Winchester Magnum and consequently it will cleanly kill any game animal on earth within reasonable ranges! Monty

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Monty
I'm an amateur gun collector and I bought a .45-70 built on an old SMLE (smelly) rifle action last year. It's a hoot to shoot ( damn, I'm a poet too) . I handload 450 gr. hard cast lead flat nose bullets at about 2100 fps for it. I like the 450 grainers because they get a little better velocity than the 500s and shoot a little flatter with less recoil. I bought the gun to take hog hunting but haven't got around to going yet. A little known fact is that the old original black powder .45/70 loaded with smokeless powder in a modern firearm is only about 300 fps slower than a .458 Winchester Magnum and consequently it will cleanly kill any game animal on earth within reasonable ranges! Monty
*****************************
Absoloutely correct Monte, welcome, as for your poetry -----hmmmm.

Incidentaly it lilled African game quite effeciently even in the old 12 - 1400 fps.

Tropical Tramp.