Here it is!

[-Ki-]

Truckinbutch

I totally understand where your coming from, and totally respect Scott and his research... With the Swift silver mine legend, and me living right in the heart of the Swift lore, i tend to agree to disagree. What i was meaning in the above post was in years past people around here Swift hunting have more than once ran up on the Hominy holes and thought they were molds, alot of history in the rocksheltors were destroyed by treasurehunters digging and sifting. Alot of Indian artifacts where destroyed, I just wanted to let people know of somewhat to look for Swifthunting, and not mistake the historic Indian sites as Swift sites........

Now with the hammer, hummmmmm that's very interesting to say the least...

 

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[truckinbutch]

I agree with you ,Ki . There are so many cultures crossing paths in this area and so much has been
destroyed by thoughtless greedy folks . We will strive to never become such .
Food for thought : What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

 

[cstraiton]

What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Like I've said before, I'm no expert or historian but my best guess would be that the early settlers to Kentucky were farmers and raised livestock. That would be the reason that Western Kentucky was the part that was settled first because of the flatlands and better soil. The particular area of Kentucky where the Swift mines are located is not very suitable to either livestock or farming though it can be and is done in some of the valleys and hollers. It is however full of ore and minerals that some of the later settlers after Boone were very interested in. I would guess that most of the people who were the first to settle in this particular area were miners and some less desirable outlaws looking to cash in on the rich silver, iron, and lead deposits in the area. Another reason I would suspect people moved to the Eastern part of the state was for the lumber. The Eastern part of the state has been referred to as Kentucky's last frontier. Once the Western and Central parts of the state's resources were being depleted, they came out to the vast wilderness in Western Kentucky to take advantage of the big boom in the lumber industry around that time. Now I could be way off on my guess, but I would bet that I'm at least partially right. Some of you that are more knowledgeable on early Kentucky history, please feel free to correct me.

 

[-Ki-]

I agree with you ,Ki . There are so many cultures crossing paths in this area and so much has been
destroyed by thoughtless greedy folks . We will strive to never become such .
Food for thought : What was the underlying reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Aww great point you bring up....what many people really don't know, is that the Indian has crossed this land even before the days of Jesus Christ. Many Indian settlements covered the state in diffrent time periods. (Kentucky has a rich archaeological heritage. It spans thousands of years, far longer than many people realize. As recently as the 1930s, this heritage was mostly unknown and unexplored, but now archaeologists know much about Kentucky's prehistory and early history, unfortunately, this information has yet to reach a wide audience..... quote from the introduction of the book "Kentucky Archaeology".
There were many Indian settlements in Ky as far back as the Early Paleoindian period (9'500 BC) Some of the reason the cultures changed was the climate here was very diffrent from today, game moved, and gradually the cultures began to change to easier ways of living through out the years....

 

[truckinbutch]

What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Like I've said before, I'm no expert or historian but my best guess would be that the early settlers to Kentucky were farmers and raised livestock. That would be the reason that Western Kentucky was the part that was settled first because of the flatlands and better soil. The particular area of Kentucky where the Swift mines are located is not very suitable to either livestock or farming though it can be and is done in some of the valleys and hollers. It is however full of ore and minerals that some of the later settlers after Boone were very interested in. I would guess that most of the people who were the first to settle in this particular area were miners and some less desirable outlaws looking to cash in on the rich silver, iron, and lead deposits in the area. Another reason I would suspect people moved to the Eastern part of the state was for the lumber. The Eastern part of the state has been referred to as Kentucky's last frontier. Once the Western and Central parts of the state's resources were being depleted, they came out to the vast wilderness in Western Kentucky to take advantage of the big boom in the lumber industry around that time. Now I could be way off on my guess, but I would bet that I'm at least partially right. Some of you that are more knowledgeable on early Kentucky history, please feel free to correct me.

Valid contemporary point . I'm talking about the very old monument signs in this remote area that tell everyone to gtfo that have been there for centuries .

 

[cstraiton]

Sorry about that. I was thinking of white settlers. I believe KI though answered your question a little better and I even learned a little bit from it as well. There has been some sort of civilization here way before I even thought.

 

[-Ki-]

Sorry about that. I was thinking of white settlers. I believe KI though answered your question a little better and I even learned a little bit from it as well. There has been some sort of civilization here way before I even thought.

you are very right about the bluegrass and western part of Ky being settled first, during this time of settlement the Indians were still raiding white settlements, all the way up to around 1800. This is mainly why Ky is called the dark and bloody ground, the Indians tried to fight for there sacred hunting grounds of eastern Ky... your very correct cstraiton

 

[truckinbutch]

Sorry about that. I was thinking of white settlers. I believe KI though answered your question a little better and I even learned a little bit from it as well. There has been some sort of civilization here way before I even thought.

Yup . I've seen monument carvings that predate many cultures and lead me to beleive that legend made this ground taboo for indigenous inhabitents for hundreds of years until anglo settlers started encroaching on Meleungeons and others .

 

[swiftsearcher]

Ki, I am well aware of the "Honey Holes" you are referring to. This was different. The set-up in the rockhouse was so that a large rock had this one hole in it, with a larger rock above it, so something could have been poured into it. Plus, my "contact" found silver here years ago. Too bad he sifted the entire rockhouse and didn't leave any "evidence" for me to find however!

 

[vamelungeon]

The holes in rocks aren't molds...think about it. How are you going to remove a pig or ingot that's been poured into a depression in a rock? There's a reason molds are made from sand. Depressions in rocks were used to crush grains.

 

[vamelungeon]

Here's a link showing how it's done:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting

Making coins was done in a completely different manner and molten metal wasn't used. The metal was placed between 2 dies with the design engraved into them, then struck with a sledge.

 

[truckinbutch]

Thanks , Seth .
Jim

 

[vamelungeon]

The coins weren't made from molten metal, they were made using dies. Also, if the vein was thick and had a high enough content, no smelting would be required. If the ore were pure enough, you could just take the metal straight from the vein and coin it. Very little smelting of metals was done in pre-Columbian America, and yet the Indians used silver, gold and copper. They used the raw metal directly from the vein.
Those holes in the rocks can't be molds, though. There would be no way to extract the metal from such a mold. Why would they even use a hole in a rock when sand is readily available in the area? They wouldn't.

 

[-Ki-]

I think your referring to casting beds...... With any old furnace or smelter there are sand casting beds. The casting bed was located under the furnace, the ore and charcoal was loaded from the top. After the ore heated to a certain temp. the metal from the rock would then flow down through the furnace to the casting bed, the casting bed would hold the shape of the molds....

 

[vamelungeon]

Exactly. If you use rock to mold molten metal, you'll never get it out. There are solid molds like bullet molds but they are made of two halves, and you can knock the bullet out by striking the mold, but if you poured liquid metal into a depression in a rock, you'd never get it out. If holes in rocks were used, you could expect to find a substantial amount of the metal left behind in the surface of the mold cavity. If you suspect a hole in a rock was used in conjunction with molten metal, look at the hole carefully and there should be quite a bit of the metal left behind.
Sand is and has been the common way to mold molten metals. It's been done this way for centuries. Look around your home at things that are large pieces of iron or steel and a lot of them will have the impression of the sand they cast in.

 

[-Ki-]

Here is a old iron furnace (smelter) from the mid 1800's i go here often usually during mushroom season..... notice at the bottom in the middle, this is a sand casting bed.....ore goes in the top of the furnace, the metal from the ore flows to the bottom, It takes time for the ore to heat, so there is a dam stone that holds the metal back, until it's time to pull the dam stone back and let the metal flow into the casting bed to the molds....... The same principle applys to smaller smelters as well.......as in Swifts furnace

after the silver cooled in the molds, he would have had tools with him to reheat the metal for the coin dies he used.......

 

[-Ki-]

What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Like I've said before, I'm no expert or historian but my best guess would be that the early settlers to Kentucky were farmers and raised livestock. That would be the reason that Western Kentucky was the part that was settled first because of the flatlands and better soil. The particular area of Kentucky where the Swift mines are located is not very suitable to either livestock or farming though it can be and is done in some of the valleys and hollers. It is however full of ore and minerals that some of the later settlers after Boone were very interested in. I would guess that most of the people who were the first to settle in this particular area were miners and some less desirable outlaws looking to cash in on the rich silver, iron, and lead deposits in the area. Another reason I would suspect people moved to the Eastern part of the state was for the lumber. The Eastern part of the state has been referred to as Kentucky's last frontier. Once the Western and Central parts of the state's resources were being depleted, they came out to the vast wilderness in Western Kentucky to take advantage of the big boom in the lumber industry around that time. Now I could be way off on my guess, but I would bet that I'm at least partially right. Some of you that are more knowledgeable on early Kentucky history, please feel free to correct me.

Valid contemporary point . I'm talking about the very old monument signs in this remote area that tell everyone to gtfo that have been there for centuries .

monument signs? do you mean like the landmarks swift mentions?

to somewhat answer that question, its the same way here in my area....I live in a rough and rugged gorge, 90% of the trails were made to the public in the 1970's. Most of the markers in my area had no access, and people have searched this river ever since Swift tried to relocate the cave....

 

[-Ki-]

The coins weren't made from molten metal, they were made using dies. Also, if the vein was thick and had a high enough content, no smelting would be required. If the ore were pure enough, you could just take the metal straight from the vein and coin it. Very little smelting of metals was done in pre-Columbian America, and yet the Indians used silver, gold and copper. They used the raw metal directly from the vein.
Those holes in the rocks can't be molds, though. There would be no way to extract the metal from such a mold. Why would they even use a hole in a rock when sand is readily available in the area? They wouldn't.

sorry to say hes right, you cant get the metal from the holes plus you could only use the rock once since you had to bust it to get the metal out.......and it would be a waste of all that beautiful silver........its just FACT!

 

[truckinbutch]

I haven't seen the holes in rock that the two of you are debating .
I have , however , poured molton metal into both hand chisled sandstone molds with no release agent
and soft pine molds to achieve rough casts and had no problem in getting them to release with no loss of metal when cool .
I think we are having a miscommunication between smelting ore and die striking coinage from smelted ore .
Jim

 

[-Ki-]

He was talking about the holes SS was referring to in the rock house....I see where hes coming from if the hole was carved in the floor of the rock house, you could only use it once, you would have to bust the rock to get out the metal.... if this action was performed there the rock SS is talking about would be busted, or metal would still be in the hole..... in order to strike coins in dies you wouldn't have to poor the metal in the rock hole, you would just use the metal out of the furnace, but this would be slow and wouldn't make since, cause you risk freezing up the furnace......Swift and crew made bars out of the ore, diffrent sizes, stored and coined later.....but i would say every crew member had a job to do, and id say most of it was carring all of that ore over a good distance to the furnace by the way Swift tells in his journal, this would also be a slow process...Not to mention all the wood it would have took to heat the furnace.....

In order to understand the smelting swift and crew did, i built myself a small smelter (there easy to build if one knows how) and practice melting metals, and re dieing them.... you mention pouring dies, not to disrespect, but swift would have not had all that...he would have had the basic smelting tools with him...........