I am not sure what this is

[sseth]

This is my first post to the forum.

I found an object that I am just not sure about.

These are a couple of pictures of a metal object I found over the weekend in low mountains of northern Utah. We were metal detecting in Cache county and this was buried about 2 feet deep. It is about 4 oz. in weight and 3.5 inches long. It is quite heavy and is mostly gold in color with copper hues.
The picture does not do a great job capturing the color, as it was dark when we got back and I took the picture on my iphone.

I will try and get some better pictures today or tomorrow. I am not sure what it is made of, or what it is. I am also unsure of what the marks are. Could it be something from the pioneers?

Thanks for your help.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Breezie,

"Here's a comparison of the 2 pics side by side. Breezie"

What.........You didn't like my side by side pictures

Take care,

Joe

Hello Joe. I guess you didnt like JW's pictures (right above yours).

 

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[sseth]

seth,
The usual method for making finger bars is still used by some, I have seen it done.
Make a bed of wet sand and pack it down until it seems quite solid.
using a finger put some similar depressions in the wet sand, pour the metal into the depressions.

What you have is the result of this process. Notice the coarse look of the exterior of the bar.

Pretty innovative and yet low tech. How do they get the markings? They look like maybe they are stamped in. I can see where one looks like it has bounced and left a duplicate, smashing out part of the other mark.

 

[Old Dog]

The stamps are actually punches that are stuck with a hammer.
so it isn't unusual to see a double strike.

 

[gollum]

That's why rough smelted dore bars are never stamped. They are stamped after smelting, refining, and assaying. A prospector in the wilderness usually would not have everything necessary to do a good job of refining. That was left for the experts at the various mints to do. They could most all do a rough fire assay to tell approximately how much of a given metal is in a given amount of ore, and an approximate fineness.

Best-Mike

 

[Adventure Wolf]

IF it was found in the mountains of Utah, I don't think it could be Spanish Silver. Utah was virtually unexplored until the Mormons settled there in 1844. It may be a mid 1800s piece from a backwoods pioneer/prospector.

 

[Breezie]

IF it was found in the mountains of Utah, I don't think it could be Spanish Silver. Utah was virtually unexplored until the Mormons settled there in 1844. It may be a mid 1800s piece from a backwoods pioneer/prospector.

I thought Coronado was in that neck of the woods. Breezie

 

[sseth]

IF it was found in the mountains of Utah, I don't think it could be Spanish Silver. Utah was virtually unexplored until the Mormons settled there in 1844. It may be a mid 1800s piece from a backwoods pioneer/prospector.

This was sent to me yesterday by one of the members in a PM

"The Spanish Trail consisted of a 1,120-mile northward-looping course traversing six states--New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, and California. Hostile Indian tribes--Apaches, Navajos, and Mojaves--prevented the opening of a direct route between Santa Fe and Los Angeles. To circumvent the great canyons of the Colorado River system, the trail was pushed northward to the open country at Green River, Utah."


I thought this was pretty interesting.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wow!

This thing was a fast moving storm when it first came into view. Now it's fading completely off the radar. Can anyone explain the loss of interest?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Adventure Wolf,

No chance they are anything but Spanish if they are authentic.

Due to the ruggedness of Colorado Terrain, the Spanish used to go some ways out of their way through Utah to get to California. This could have been up until 1821 when the Mexicans gained their independence.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Breezie,

I don't believe there is any evidence that Coronado came anywhere near Utah. On the other hand, one of the Spaniards who was with him, Lopez de Cardenas, was credited (erroneously) for many years with the discovery of that state. That, however, is another story and does not involve Coronado personally.

Do you have a source for Coronado ever being in Utah?

Many thanks,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Breezie,

Joe is correct. Coronado never came close to Utah. One of his men named Cardenas did discover the Grand Canyon, but did not get past it (although there is a good story about a cave on the North Rim that contained about a dozen sets of Spanish Armor that was found in 1908).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

You are correct about Cardenas. I am not sure the Spaniards were even aware of the area that would eventually become Utah in the 1540-42 time period. I could, of course, be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[timekiller]

I don't have much time right now gotta go to work here in a sec.But see this is green checked I'm guessing someone behind the screen tested this and it is gold? Also I'm guessing someone has put a date to the marks on it for it to be green checked? Other wise still a mystery I would think! As far as finding things that aren't suppose to be it happens alot I believe.Nothing says anything about things were I find some of the things I have being that old either but I can promise you it's there in more than one place as well.I think history that far back can sway a little myself.And may not even be recorded!
Just a site on this.
http://ecai.org/na-missions/index.html
Green Check

 

[Gypsy Heart]

Spanish silver bar found in the Uinta Mountains in the 1950's.

Over the years we have learned several things about it.

1. The former owner once declined a $10,000.00 offer for it.

2. The purity markings on it are similar to the markings on the
gold bars found at the Atocha site. It is marked like a
gold bar instead of a silver bar. It is marked 10 and
1/4 carat. (X.)


3. The symbols at the left end of the bar, in the above photo,
were most likely the owners mark.

4. The odd symbol in the middle may have been the shipper's
mark.

5. In the word HISPAN the S,P and N are backwards.
Through research we were able to determine some of
the cob coins found at the Atocha site were minted
by an individual who was dyslexic. This may have
been the case here as well. Reference "Cob Coinage"

 

[packerbacker]

What detector do you use? My guess is Minelab for that target at 2-feet. Great find! I can't imagine it being fake. Who would make something like that, lose it and have it sink to a depth of 2 feet in the middle of nowhere?

 

[ipsilateral]

Stunning. What beginner's luck! If you haven't already, I would certainly take a deep breath, remember precisely where you found it and make a detailed map for yourself alone. Personally, I would then clear my weekend schedule and start looking for more. Odds are pretty good that if there is one, there could be more. I tend to agree with the rest of the forum that you should not disclose your identity or loacation. Congratulations. That's awesome. Banner for sure. I'm sure I'm not alone in being a bit jealous. You must have done something good in a past life!

 

[cactusjumper]

sseth,

If at some point you decide to post pictures of both sides of your bars, and they are close up and higher resolution, I believe the input from those who are knowledgeable in such things will be of much more help to you.

If the bars are authentic, and the certainly look it from what we can see, they are worth a great deal more than the metal content. The only way, I know of, to possibly authenticate them is an assay.

Still a very nice find.

Take care,

Joe

 

[CRUSADER]

sseth,

If at some point you decide to post pictures of both sides of your bars, and they are close up and higher resolution, I believe the input from those who are knowledgeable in such things will be of much more help to you.

If the bars are authentic, and the certainly look it from what we can see, they are worth a great deal more than the metal content. The only way, I know of, to possibly authenticate them is an assay.

Still a very nice find.

Take care,

Joe

only adding clarity to your thoughts...

bear in mind an assayer will not authenticate it as being a Spanish finger bar only that it has the appropriate karat of Gold. Fakes (not implying this is in any way, looks good to me) are also made from gold so doesn't prove its old. Provenance would normally help if accosiated with a ship wreck for example, but not so much in this case. No idea who in the US authenticates this type of specialist item but I'm sure others on here know.

 

[minetres]

Sseth,

Congrats on your bar it is Spanish and I have to agree with every one it is Gold. There may be more where that came from good luck and be careful. I hate to scare anyone but I know a man who found some bars like that last year and showed them around and last week the authoritys found his car with his wallet inside, he has been missing for awhile.


Minetres

 

[cactusjumper]

CRUSADER,

An assay will give you the percentages of all metal content and a precise fingerprint of the complete makeup of the bars. That information "could" give you the era the bar was made, as well as where the material might have come from.

If a fake were made from dental gold and silver dollars, I believe an assay would reveal that. I am not saying that's what happened here, just what information an assay could provide.

I could be wrong, and if so, I expect I will be straightened out quickly.

Because of the market for these kinds of "artifacts", they have been part of the treasure landscape for many years now. It's only prudent to be a little wary.

The treasure of the Atocha has been mentioned here already. Mel Fisher pled "no contest" to making fake coins and selling them as having come from the wreck. I did a bit of research into the Atocha and spoke with Dr. Eugene Lyon trying to confirm Chuck Kenworthy's claims about the "King's Codes". Those claims turned out to be false.

Blind faith in the treasure field usually ends up costing someone a lot of money. In the above case, it turned out costing the perp' (Fisher) a lot of money.

Take care,

Joe