I am not sure what this is

[sseth]

This is my first post to the forum.

I found an object that I am just not sure about.

These are a couple of pictures of a metal object I found over the weekend in low mountains of northern Utah. We were metal detecting in Cache county and this was buried about 2 feet deep. It is about 4 oz. in weight and 3.5 inches long. It is quite heavy and is mostly gold in color with copper hues.
The picture does not do a great job capturing the color, as it was dark when we got back and I took the picture on my iphone.

I will try and get some better pictures today or tomorrow. I am not sure what it is made of, or what it is. I am also unsure of what the marks are. Could it be something from the pioneers?

Thanks for your help.

 

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[sseth]

We have a member Gollum that may be able to further ID this ingot.

That would be great.
Seth

 

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[timekiller]

Is there any way to tell what the symbols mean? These are the symbols from the other side
The X mark is for fineness also think the dots go with it!
The (M) I see is for Mexico!
The mark on the other end from the (M) I can't see very well! Could be assayer mark?
Can't tell if it has a tax mark or not either?
Need some better pics if you get a chance.

 

[CRUSADER]

This is my first post to the forum.

I found an object that I am just not sure about.

These are a couple of pictures of a metal object I found over the weekend in low mountains of northern Utah. We were metal detecting in Cache county and this was buried about 2 feet deep. It is about 4 oz. in weight and 3.5 inches long. It is quite heavy and is mostly gold in color with copper hues.
The picture does not do a great job capturing the color, as it was dark when we got back and I took the picture on my iphone.

I will try and get some better pictures today or tomorrow. I am not sure what it is made of, or what it is. I am also unsure of what the marks are. Could it be something from the pioneers?

Thanks for your help.

I love the way you didn't know what it was, I would have been jumping around with my head on fire

This is a very special find, one that will take some beating, unless there are more

This is dream material & my vote will be in but you need to post a few more comments to get on the banner, so start a few random comments like 'nice finds' on some posts

 

[timekiller]

This is my first post to the forum.

I found an object that I am just not sure about.

These are a couple of pictures of a metal object I found over the weekend in low mountains of northern Utah. We were metal detecting in Cache county and this was buried about 2 feet deep. It is about 4 oz. in weight and 3.5 inches long. It is quite heavy and is mostly gold in color with copper hues.
The picture does not do a great job capturing the color, as it was dark when we got back and I took the picture on my iphone.

I will try and get some better pictures today or tomorrow. I am not sure what it is made of, or what it is. I am also unsure of what the marks are. Could it be something from the pioneers?

Thanks for your help.

I love the way you didn't know what it was, I would have been jumping around with my head on fire

This is a very special find, one that will take some beating, unless there are more

This is dream material & my vote will be in but you need to post a few more comments to get on the banner, so start a few random comments like 'nice finds' on some posts

You Got That Right neatest thing I've seen that I recall! But he is a first time poster

 

[gollum]

Thanks BCP,

What you have there, is what appears to be a Spanish Colonial Finger Bar made in Mexico City. When I get home tonight, I'll blow it up in Photoshop and have a closer look at all the details.

Timekiller, the "M" doesn't stand for Mexico. If it were just an "M" (and it was Spanish Colonial), it would have been made in Madrid, Spain. Because the "M" has a little dot over the top, THAT means it was made in Mexico City. Same thing applies to coins.

If it is authentic, some of the marks should show date (not always), purity, ownership, assayer, and weight. Those are some of the ways to authenticate treasure bars. We know the names of the assayers in every mint in the New World. Initials on bars can be cross referenced with lists of names of assayers.

Best-Mike

P.S.

That little dot is actually an "O".

Mike

 

[CRUSADER]

Thanks BCP,

What you have there, is what appears to be a Spanish Colonial Finger Bar made in Mexico City. When I get home tonight, I'll blow it up in Photoshop and have a closer look at all the details.

Timekiller, the "M" doesn't stand for Mexico. If it were just an "M" (and it was Spanish Colonial), it would have been made in Madrid, Spain. Because the "M" has a little dot over the top, THAT means it was made in Mexico City. Same thing applies to coins.

If it is authentic, some of the marks should show date (not always), purity, ownership, assayer, and weight. Those are some of the ways to authenticate treasure bars. We know the names of the assayers in every mint in the New World. Initials on bars can be cross referenced with lists of names of assayers.

Best-Mike

sounds promising, what ball park date is it?

 

[sseth]

Is there any way to tell what the symbols mean? These are the symbols from the other side
The X mark is for fineness also think the dots go with it!
The (M) I see is for Mexico!
The mark on the other end from the (M) I can't see very well! Could be assayer mark?
Can't tell if it has a tax mark or not either?
Need some better pics if you get a chance.

I will post a few more first thing in the morning when I get home.
Thanks
Seth

 

[sseth]

Thanks BCP,

What you have there, is what appears to be a Spanish Colonial Finger Bar made in Mexico City. When I get home tonight, I'll blow it up in Photoshop and have a closer look at all the details.

Timekiller, the "M" doesn't stand for Mexico. If it were just an "M" (and it was Spanish Colonial), it would have been made in Madrid, Spain. Because the "M" has a little dot over the top, THAT means it was made in Mexico City. Same thing applies to coins.

If it is authentic, some of the marks should show date (not always), purity, ownership, assayer, and weight. Those are some of the ways to authenticate treasure bars. We know the names of the assayers in every mint in the New World. Initials on bars can be cross referenced with lists of names of assayers.

Best-Mike

Thanks. I will also get some better pictures with my good camera and under better light to post. And to think, I was thinking I might have gotten lucky and found something from the pioneers. I was even thinking it might just have been some sort of rough plumb-bob or something.

Thanks very much to you all. I am learning so much.
Seth

 

[timekiller]

Thanks BCP,

What you have there, is what appears to be a Spanish Colonial Finger Bar made in Mexico City. When I get home tonight, I'll blow it up in Photoshop and have a closer look at all the details.

Timekiller, the "M" doesn't stand for Mexico. If it were just an "M" (and it was Spanish Colonial), it would have been made in Madrid, Spain. Because the "M" has a little dot over the top, THAT means it was made in Mexico City. Same thing applies to coins.

If it is authentic, some of the marks should show date (not always), purity, ownership, assayer, and weight. Those are some of the ways to authenticate treasure bars. We know the names of the assayers in every mint in the New World. Initials on bars can be cross referenced with lists of names of assayers.

Best-Mike

Thanks for helping him mike as I'm just guessing from what I read.I've found spanish cobs and others before but nothing like what he might have there!

 

[gollum]

I know someone who has a couple of bars that are 60% gold that up until he sent me good pics of, the only pics of them looked perfectly like silver. They were even displayed in a museum as Silver Trade Bars.

This is not a dore (door-ee) bar. Dores were never stamped. Only refined bars would be stamped. That's why it makes the location of the find very confusing. This bar would have to have been brought up there from Mexico. There's really no reason for anyone to have done that (well, I can think of one, but we'll see).

Under Spanish Colonial Law, a miner could trade raw ore or rough smelted dore bars for goods and services in the frontier without having to pay the Royal Quint (20%) Tax. When you brought your ore or dores in to be assayed, smelted, and refined into pure bars or coins, the mint automatically extracted 20% of your total and sent it to Spain. Understanding that, maybe you can understand why I am a bit confused about this little birdie's nesting place! HAHAHA

best-Mike

 

[gollum]

..........also in the gold2 picture, one of the things I see looks like a chunk missing on the ingot. Sort of rectangular shape. That would likely be the assayer's "bite". That was a piece they "bit" (or chiseled) off the ingot as their fee for doing the refining.

Mike

 

[sseth]

..........also in the gold2 picture, one of the things I see looks like a chunk missing on the ingot. Sort of rectangular shape. That would likely be the assayer's "bite". That was a piece they "bit" (or chiseled) off the ingot as their fee for doing the refining.

Mike

It does have an uneven end. I thought maybe a mold didn't quite match up or had a deformity or something, but that makes sense as well.

Here is another dumb question. It has the same marks on it is several places. Does this mean anything? Sorry to be so dumb about this. The coolest thing I ever found before this was an old quarter.

 

[CRUSADER]

..........also in the gold2 picture, one of the things I see looks like a chunk missing on the ingot. Sort of rectangular shape. That would likely be the assayer's "bite". That was a piece they "bit" (or chiseled) off the ingot as their fee for doing the refining.

Mike

It does have an uneven end. I thought maybe a mold didn't quite match up or had a deformity or something, but that makes sense as well.

Here is another dumb question. It has the same marks on it is several places. Does this mean anything? Sorry to be so dumb about this. The coolest thing I ever found before this was an old quarter.

yeap, you made the jump from rag to riches in one giant leap

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Wow... how old was the quarter?

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Not sure Sseth's bar has an assayer's bite in it. Thought they, pretty much gouged a piece out of the face of the bars. I thought the "bite" was to test the purity of the bar.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon my friend: Goody just alerted me to this find.

A) Do NOT ATTEMPT TO CLEAN IT other than with soap and water, no scrubbing!

B) This should be the "last" picture to post.

C) It is probably a Dore' bar from a larger mining operation. If it was from a Mint, it would normally be of a higher fineness. Some even look like a brass bar.

D) It is, as they have said, most likely "A finger bar" used as we do our decimal coinage, pocket (?)money.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Old Dog]

This surely is the last place I would have expected to see one of these.

Take the advice of Gollum and Don Jose.
Put it in a safe place and don't spread it around you have it.
DON'T post any more pictures of it.

If you have more of them ... congrats. (don't say so just enjoy.)

What a superb find, you have my vote for the banner!

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Fineness initially, but the assayer kept the metal after the scoop was tested as a fee for the service. I have seen bites that look like someone used a little melon baller on a bar (see Atocha Bar below).

Here is an excellent article on the examination and meanings of the marks on that Atocha Silver Bar:

http://www.sedwickcoins.com/articles/atocha.htm

Reading that web page will explain a LOT about treasure bar markings.

Jose,

I doubt it's a dore bar. Dores weren't stamped. They are just rough smelted bars that are easier to transport than raw ore. If it were a dore bar from Utah, why would it have a Mexico City Mint Mark on it? New, this thing (if authentic) was refined in Mexico City and then transported up to Utah. A perplexing situation.

Best-Mike

 

[trikikiwi]

Welcome to TreasureNet Sseth What a way to introduce yourself
I'm sure every member reading this, is drooling over your find.
Just spectacular - my Banner vote is in.

Cheers, Mike

 

[gollum]

One more thing:

If the ingots are authentic and the marks are real, they would have been considered gold bars rather than silver. Gold and Silver assay markings are different. Gold Bars are marked in Karats and Silver Bars are marked as a part of 2400 (i.e. 2380/2400).

Karat markings are "X"s equal 10 karats, and the dots are 1/4 of a whole. Looks like they were assayed at 20 3/4K Fine.

Those are two different bars, aren't they?

Best-Mike