If Confederate Gold Bars were found on Pa. state game lands who owns it.

[kaidenamar]

If it is not Fed Gov land, The city or the state are the rightful owners if it is public land, and it depends on what political figure is on the board of that particular agency including DCNR that determines whatever is found will go to the correct museum, agency or if actual protocal is being followed.

 

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[kaidenamar]

What he is doing has to reach the news. He is not just fighting for himself he is fighting for all MD's

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

This may or may not be of interest to some.......

5-19-08
Mystery of Lost Confederate Gold

Historians/History

by Wesley Millett and Gerald WhiteWesley Millett and Gerald White are the authors of The Rebel and the Rose.
- See more at: History News Network | Mystery of Lost Confederate Gold

In April 1865, the Civil War ended for most Americans. The war, and its various aspects, continues to capture the interest and imagination of many Americans who are fascinated by the battles, leaders, and strategy displayed during that conflict. Mysteries endure, too, including the ultimate disposition of the Confederate treasury.

Much of the mystery was engendered by Union officials, who greatly inflated the value of the Confederacy’s treasury to several million dollars. This was probably done to increase the incentive to Union soldiers combing the villages and roads of the Carolinas and Georgia for the treasury, and for Confederate President Jefferson Davis, who had fled Richmond. The actual value of the treasury was probably not much more than $500,000.
The trek south of the Confederate government has been well documented in a number of first hand accounts written several years after the war. The authors were primarily participants in the evacuation of Richmond and they included Confederate cabinet officials, army officers, and treasury employees. Many of the accounts were published in the papers of the Southern Historical Society, in an effort to dispel rumors that Davis took the money for himself and his family. One treasury clerk ― in particular, Micajah Clark ― provided a detailed accounting of the disposition of the funds.

An aspect of the treasure that Clark omitted concerned the fate of 39 kegs of Mexican silver dollars. These were coins that the Confederacy received through the sale of cotton to Mexico. The Mexican coins had been transported to Danville, Virginia, and when the Davis party was forced to move further south, primarily by wagon, the more than 9,000 pounds of silver would have considerably slowed down the procession. For this reason, the coins were almost certainly buried in Danville, and evidence suggests, they remain there today.

The various narratives of the disbursement of the treasury end in Washington, Georgia on May 4, 1865, when two Confederate Navy officials, James A. Semple and Edward Tidball, were entrusted with $86,000 in gold. Jefferson Davis stated in his 1881 book, The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, that the “transfer of the treasure was made to Mr. Semple, a bonded officer of the Navy, and his assistant, Mr. Tidball.” Davis added only that the instructions to Semple were for him to attempt to deliver the gold abroad to the financial agent of the government. He was referring to the commercial house of Fraser, Trenholm & Company in Liverpool, England. Postmaster General John Reagan, who was with Davis in Danville, added more detail, recalling that the gold was to be hidden in the false bottom of a carriage. The mystery thus began when Semple and Tidball disappeared.

Tidball, for his part, decided that the war was over for him, as he was seen a few days later heading north from Georgia, accompanied by a Confederate judge and a paroled army officer. The former assistant to Confederate Navy Secretary Stephen Mallory returned to Winchester, Virginia, where he built an elaborate house, Linden Farm, and became a prominent citizen. He received a pardon in August 1865, and in 1872, was elected to the Virginia House of Delegates. Given these events, and his extensive property, Tidball very likely profited from a disbursement of the treasury in Georgia. In fact, during a recent renovation of Linden Farm by its owner, a document found hidden in a wall confirms Tidball’s possession of a portion of the gold.

For Semple, as with Tidball, history is mute on the activities of both men. In the 1938 book, Flight Into Oblivion, by A.J. Hanna, The Long Surrender by Burke Davis in 1985, and in 2001, An Honorable Defeat: the Last Days of the Confederate Government by Williams C. Davis, the mystery of the disappearing gold was unresolved. The lack of discussion in these books is not surprising. Semple did seem to disappear into the night, for he had to avoid the attention of both the enemy and paroled Confederate soldiers looking to confiscate horses and wagons in returning to their homes. Semple was also given vague instructions, which left a great deal of latitude in where he went and how he got there.
One of the clues to the former Navy paymaster and his survival after the events of May 4 were documented by Robert Seeger in his 1962 book, And Tyler, Too, which provided an in-depth look at the presidency of John Tyler and his family. The travels of James Semple and his infatuation with the widow of the president, Julia Gardiner Tyler, were mentioned in the book and provided evidence of Semple’s activities on behalf of Davis and the South, even after the surrender of Confederate forces.

Corroborating evidence found in Semple’s letters to Julia Gardiner Tyler, depicted a man on the run, carrying on underground activities for Davis. Instead of Liverpool, Semple eventually got as far as Nassau, after hiding out in the Okefenokee Swamp along the Georgia-Florida border for months. Ultimately, he took refuge in the North at the home of Julia Gardiner Tyler. Once called the “Rose of Long Island” for an advertisement that used her image, Julia was strikingly attractive, even at 45. She had long black hair, gray eyes, and a figure that drew dozens of suitors before she had agreed to marry the president, then 30 years her senior.
An ardent Confederate, Julia had made a difficult decision late in the war to leave Virginia for her mother’s home on Staten Island, New York. Union soldiers were invading the countryside around Sherwood Forest, the Tyler plantation, and the safety of her young children was paramount. With both her husband and her mother deceased, Julia was alone on Staten Island with the children, surrounded by “Yankees” unhappy with a Southern sympathizer in their midst, even though she had been a First Lady.

Semple was drawn to Julia, and she to him, by circumstances of war and the aftermath. Unable to accept the end of the Confederacy and Northern domination over the South, he collaborated with other disenfranchised leaders exiled in Canada. Over the course of the next two years, he traveled between the U. S. and Canada in clandestine activities, often using the alias Allen S. James, his travels financed with the Confederate gold.

In Semple’s mind, if the U.S. could be drawn into a war with Great Britain, the North would need the South and would ease up on letting the former Confederate States back into the Union. The Fenian Brotherhood, which was preparing to attack Canada with a growing army, seemed to be an opportunity; and with the apparent blessing of Jefferson Davis, with whom he was somehow able to exchange messages, though Davis was securely locked up in prison at Fortress Monroe, Virginia, Semple became a courier for the Fenian movement. Between the financial help he provided to Julia, payments to support his estranged wife, Leticia, and the expenses of his clandestine activities, the gold in his possession became depleted during his two years on the run. - See more at: uf

Around that time (and probably because he could no longer finance his travels), he finally began to realize there was nothing to be gained for the South, that the Fenian army was more rhetoric than substance and was ill prepared to precipitate war between the U.S. and Great Britain.

Like most Southerners, who strongly believed their cause was right, Semple was ultimately forced to admit that the Confederacy no longer existed and could not be resurrected, that nothing more could be done. He returned to relative obscurity in his native Virginia, near where he was born in New Kent County, and turned his attention to earning a living.

Semple apparently never attempted to recover the Mexican silver dollars in Danville, for various reasons. During the months he was trying to stay ahead of his would-be captors, Danville became an encampment for the Union army. With enemy soldiers occupying the town, any effort to dig up the some 160,000 8-reale coins would have certainly been seen. Besides, Semple was done with any sort of an adventure. He was worn out, saddened by the devastation that existed in his part of the state, and the difficulty he and his neighbors were having in restoring their lives and properties. Simply putting food on the table became an essential concern.

The evidence is strong that no one else managed to dig up the silver either, quite possibly because of where it was buried… in a cemetery area. Then too, given the volume and weight of the silver, the digging would have certainly been noticed by soldiers and townspeople, whether during the day or at night under the glow of kerosene lamps. Possibly, the fact that almost 1,400 Union soldiers, former prisoners warehoused in the town, had died of smallpox, dysentery, and other diseases and were buried nearby, could also have discouraged random digging.

In any case, caches of the silver coins have reportedly been detected at several locations in the Danville search area. A Colorado company, hired by a private individual, performed a geophysical survey and employed pulse induction instruments to identify the locations of the silver (and a small amount of gold). With the technology of today, why does the specie remain buried? For one reason only. The coins are buried on city-owned land, and Danville officials, concerned about disturbing graves, continue to refuse all requests to dig, even test holes.

Perhaps the city will ultimately change its mind and enrich its coffers with the largest portion of the estimated $16 million in value.



- See more at: History News Network | Mystery of Lost Confederate Gold

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, this is SIMILAR to the BEALE TREASURE in Bedford, Va. SOME ppl (ME, too) believe that the "BT" is REALLY the CSA TREASURY - WR (for the WESTERN REGION of Virginia)... "ear-marked" for Lynchburg, Va. (last state capital of Virginia, April 7-10, 1865)... AND! VMI (Virginia Military Institute) in Lexington, Va. MANY REB Officers were VMI Grads... SO! The SOUTH lost... ALL the Gold, etc. became "Spoils of War", claimed by the FEDS! They have been looking for the CSA Treasury & Beale Treasure, SINCE! HA! VMI! Lexington... Lynchburg! RECONSTRUCTION! LAST book by Grand-master Peter Viemeister (RIP) on the Beale Treasure... CONFEDERATE TREASURE COVER-UP: Duty, Honor, & Deceit; GET IT! Coffee...?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Probably like they suggested, best place to have hid it would be in a grave....

 

[doverturtle]

If it is not Fed Gov land, The city or the state are the rightful owners if it is public land, and it depends on what political figure is on the board of that particular agency including DCNR that determines whatever is found will go to the correct museum, agency or if actual protocal is being followed.

That is not how it works. Federal gold = federal property, no matter where it is found. The best thing to do if one finds it is to keep quiet.

 

[Limitool]

Keep your find very quiet and no matter how hard that may be... stick with it. Take a million pics, take and video and write a great story. That's what I would do if I was EVER presented with this "problem".

As far as selling your find.... it can be done. First find it, secure it and THINK. Nice "problem" to have buddy. But thus far the path your on is not a good one (my opinion). And openly showing a found "lost treasure" is a sure path to disaster. And this would go even if you found it on YOUR PROPERTY let alone somewhere else. Be quiet about it unless you want the attention... you'll get it buddy.

Best of luck to ya... I'd bet a few of us here have dealt with this "problem".

 

[FinderKeeper]

Hi Citiboy Thanks for the info but we all ready found the gold, our problem is getting DCNR to dig it up and give us a finders fee. If they don't have a claim to it then they can't give us anything and the feds say we have to prove its federal gold then they will dig. WE can't prove who's gold it is so it sets.

Thank you for having issued a like JEFF --- It is a honor to get a like from such a noted member !!!
Finder Keeper ------ Please note ----- I am not sure of the extent of you planned adventure I can only advise of some of the finer points that might assist you- barring the use of GPR or heavy backhoes ( ect ) You should have a general or specific area in which to search --- I am an firm believer that at the time the fabled DIGGING DEEP was beyond the ability of the persons hiding and items are usually located by major landmarks such as a stone wall or forked tree near a huge bolder or brook
Quiet observation of the area will also insure a positive response---- If your history says it was on a wagon train then look for the remains of a road ?
IMO any treasure of that size and weight would have made it difficult to move much past the roadway - I would scout the area and scout the area , maybe spend so $ on an old USGS map which might show some indications of old buildings or road ways .
Anyway as I have mentioned before in other posts I find the research and putting the Dots Together sometimes more exciting than the actual hunt
Good luck

 

[GoldDiggerDon]

Some may disagree and others may not. But If I knew there were gold and silver buried somewhere. Game lands, state Lands, Private lands, Fed Lands. I dont think I would care much. It would be dug up already. May be worth more the way it is but I know in this day and age. I would melt it and sell if for weight.

I would take some detectors out there and see if i could locate a general spot. Narrow down where it may be. Only dig those spots. I wouldn't go in there and dig a crater. I have spent a load of time on game lands in pa. I spent over a month total in a few different areas that were marked as game lands. Not once did i ever see a conservation officer or a game warden.

Scan the area with a camera that doesnt have an ir-filter. Would do this at night. Make sure there are no game cams in the area. Return shortly after mark your locations and dig at times that you notice no activity in the area. More then likely you wont be seen anyways. Game lands arent always patrolled.


If I knew hell yeah. Id dig it. Then make sure you zip your lips after. And maybe never speak of it again.

i know may be illegal but now a days what is legal. And in this case its only illegal if you get caught.

disclaimer: I am not condoning any illegal activity. This is a case in which I would ponder the idea. No one should ever do this as trouble could occur shortly afterwards. But hypothetically it is exactly what I would want to do.

 

[gunsil]

The letters you show are written with a ball point pen therefore written after the late 1950s. I would need to get out my hip boots here, don't believe a word of any of it.

 

[GoldDiggerDon]

good point. unless it was copied so it could be read easily. but yeah good point.

 

[wingmaster]

I wouldn't have ask permission so nobody but me would know it was there, if I was sure it would be a night time operation done in one nights time. I would have even filled my hole back in because that's the kind of guy I am. HH

 

[jeff of pa]

good point. unless it was copied so it could be read easily. but yeah good point.

We just got word from a person that has all of his great , great uncle's letters from the civil war and he was on the wagon train of gold that was lost in Elk, Co. Pa. and now known as the Dents Run Lost Gold.
The letters say that the gold is confederate gold and not from out west. Is this why no one could ever find anything about this shipment . I am trying to get copy's of the diary and letters and post them. I have posted part of the letter he gave us, there is other info on the letter we can not show at this time until we get the OK. The great, great uncle is Mr. Haden from Haden Farms in Gretna, Va, OK so if there is 52 bars of gold with confederate markings on them I would think all of it would go south to Richmond.
Is this why DCNR will not let us dig up the gold at the site . Maybe they want it View attachment 1227833View attachment 1227834

I read & re-Read what he says above, & I don't see anything saying this letter is is a period piece.

he starts out : "We just got word from a person that has all of his great , great uncle's letters"

he goes on to say "I am trying to get copy's of the diary and letters and post them." not that he has them at that point.


and then says "I have posted part of the letter he gave us"

I take this to mean the letter posted was the explanation written from a person that has all of his great , great uncle's letters . Perhaps "I have posted part of the letter he gave us" should really have said : "I have posted part of the letter he "wrote" us"

 

[gunsil]

Well since there have never been any huge amounts of Confederate gold anyways, the whole thing is still BS.

 

[FinderKeeper]

The letters you show are written with a ball point pen therefore written after the late 1950s. I would need to get out my hip boots here, don't believe a word of any of it.

Sorry, The letter I posted was just written this year and sent to me by a 3rd party. The person that wrote this letter is in jail and we have a hard time getting the info from him. He is holding on to the info until he gets out.

 

[kudo623]

I believe Scully's account is accurate, as far as a Union shipment of gold, although I think the reasons for this shipment may have been to remove it far enough away from any confederate bordering states, since at this time the South was winning the civil war and had gotten as far as Gettysburg PA at this time and further north as well. Therefore I believe that there was great concern that this gold might have fallen into enemy's hands. I don't see this shipment going to DC at all, since, according to Scully, Philadelphia and Harrisburg were gearing up for an invasion. A remote inaccessible area in PA was probably chosen to hide the gold to be retrieved later by the Fed's after the war was over.

 

[gunsil]

I believe Scully's account is accurate, as far as a Union shipment of gold, although I think the reasons for this shipment may have been to remove it far enough away from any confederate bordering states, since at this time the South was winning the civil war and had gotten as far as Gettysburg PA at this time and further north as well. Therefore I believe that there was great concern that this gold might have fallen into enemy's hands. I don't see this shipment going to DC at all, since, according to Scully, Philadelphia and Harrisburg were gearing up for an invasion. A remote inaccessible area in PA was probably chosen to hide the gold to be retrieved later by the Fed's after the war was over.

And then you woke up!! Why would the feds bury gold in rural PA? West Point was a silver repository for many years and no rebels were ever going to get in there (By the way, West Point is now the opium repository with many tons stored there, and is also a modern US gold repository and mint). There were also plenty of secure vaults in NYC. Believe me, no large caches of US or confederate gold are buried anywhere, it is the stuff of treasure magazine writers and dreamers. The confederates were stone cold broke, and the US had plenty of secure places to hold theirs.

 

[kudo623]

And then you woke up!! Why would the feds bury gold in rural PA? West Point was a silver repository for many years and no rebels were ever going to get in there (By the way, West Point is now the opium repository with many tons stored there, and is also a modern US gold repository and mint). There were also plenty of secure vaults in NYC. Believe me, no large caches of US or confederate gold are buried anywhere, it is the stuff of treasure magazine writers and dreamers. The confederates were stone cold broke, and the US had plenty of secure places to hold theirs.

I guess you don't know about the gold bars they found up there?

 

[miboje]

DCNR said we have no claim or rights to anything found at the site but they want us to sign a paper giving everything found at the site to the Museum Commissoners in Pa. why sign if we have no claim.

Right. Why sign anything if you have no claim. Apparently they know more than they are saying. Reading between the lines, it would appear as though you have some rights of some sort, otherwise there would be no way you could authorize the giving what is found, right? Something's fishy here.

 

[FinderKeeper]

Last week we solved a 300yr old letter that told of a great treasure in Society Hill in Philadelphia and the story ran in the Phil Voice Paper. WE gave them maps of the location and the reporter said are you going to look for the treasure and we said no. If we find it the state will just take it . this is all in the news story. Then it reads about a lawyer saying That's not the case and the finder could end up with this find. So if the law in Pa. is not finished then the Dents Run find is ours. The lawyer is working with our lawyer to check this out. This is the part he said.

FINDERS KEEPERS?

Even if Parada – or any prospective treasure hunter – found the treasure, they might not be entitled to keep it.

Pennsylvania law does not state clearly who would get to keep the coins, according to Temple Law professor Finbarr McCarthy. That's because the state Supreme Court refrained in 1949 from considering whether "treasure trove" law had ever been adopted by Pennsylvania.

"There's been plenty of people for centuries that have been burying wealth, hoping maybe someday to come back and pick it up." – Daniel Rolph, historian, Historical Society of Pennsylvania

If the coins are deemed a "treasure trove," a designation that encompasses gold and silver coins, a court could follow common law practices that treat it as lost or abandoned property. In that case, McCarthy said, the original owner, if found, receives the treasure. Otherwise, the finder keeps it – unless he or she was trespassing. Then it goes to the property owner.

But a court also could apply an old English statute that deems treasure trove as state property, McCarthy said. Or the coins could be classified as "mislaid," which seemingly would give the property owner the best claim.